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  #561  
Old 14th October 2009, 03:07 PM
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For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness.
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  #562  
Old 14th October 2009, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Otto View Post
The dubiousness is in taking God's figurative words for His literal ones.
Is there any way to seperate the conscientiously pious impulses in me from the self gratifying religious affections I've unconsciously become habituated to in my cultural milieu?
Oh dear! I've begun to try and understand & explain spirit & truth. Silly me! I better get back to my Piety Aerobics video. My prayer closet's been feeling a size too small lately.
Making accusations about the motivations of others skips the discussion.

Maybe you could instead describe what you understand as "spirit and truth", and how it maintains the incarnational reality of Christ.
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  #563  
Old 15th October 2009, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE=Thekla; Making accusations about the motivations of others skips the discussion.
We should try and leave off doing that, then.
Maybe you could instead describe what you understand as "spirit and truth", and how it maintains the incarnational reality of Christ.
Maybe I could. Spirit=attitude, and truth = truth.
Truth is, no material miracle attends the sanctification of the eucharist.
Worshipping as if it does is not worshipping in truth or with a truthful attitude.

Christ was as safe in a sin stained womb as He was in a sin-stained world.
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  #564  
Old 15th October 2009, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Otto View Post
We should try and leave off doing that, then.
Thank-you

Maybe I could. Spirit=attitude, and truth = truth.
Truth is, no material miracle attends the sanctification of the eucharist.
Worshipping as if it does is not worshipping in truth or with a truthful attitude.

Christ was as safe in a sin stained womb as He was in a sin-stained world.
So in this sense, the reference to "spirit and truth" does or does not include the Holy Spirit ...

By truth do you mean "fact" or Christ ? (It seems you have used the term with the understanding of the former.)

So before understanding the last statement, it would be helpful to clarify what it is you mean by "truth".

I am still unclear on how you understand the coming of and effect of Christ (including the Eucharist) in terms of the Incarnation.
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  #565  
Old 17th October 2009, 08:37 PM
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Bump. Where'd everyone go?

I'm going to restate this with some alterations.

Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
We know the theory that developed later, after the apostles, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaeus, etc. We know about the requirement for a duly-ordained priest, saying the correct words, at the altar.

Yet the very early Tradition:

"Thus Justin says expressly, prayers and thanksgivings alone are the true and acceptable sacrifices, which the Christians offer. Irenaeus has been brought as a witness for the Roman doctrine, only on the ground of a false reading. The African fathers, in the third century, who elsewhere incline to the symbolical interpretation of the words of institution, are the first to approach on this point the later Roman Catholic idea of a sin-offering; especially Cyprian, the steadfast advocate of priesthood and of episcopal authority. The ideas of priesthood, sacrifice, and altar, are intimately connected, and a Judaizing or paganizing conception of one must extend to all. "
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.vii.xi.html

" This eucharistic sacrifice, however, the ante-Nicene fathers conceived not as an unbloody repetition of the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross, but simply as a commemoration and renewed appropriation of that atonement, and, above all, a thank-offering of the whole church for all the favors of God in creation and redemption. Hence the current name itself—eucharist; which denoted in the first place the prayer of thanksgiving, but afterwards the whole rite. "
History of the Christian Church, Volume II: Ante-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 100-325. | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Why does Paul and Luke see it as a thank-offering?

So, why did (past tense) they see it this way? (To explore why it changed is another question.)

Why did they see it this way? What does Scripture say?

John 6, Jesus uses the word sarx/flesh. Believe in Him that He is God Incarnate, a body prepared, the Lamb of God.

At Passover as the Lamb, He then at communion uses the word body/soma.

Why?
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Last edited by Standing Up; 17th October 2009 at 08:42 PM.
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  #566  
Old 17th October 2009, 10:31 PM
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John 6:28-59

28
Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?

31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, `HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.' "

32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.

33
"For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."

34
Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."

35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

40
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

41
Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven."

42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, `I have come down out of heaven'?"

43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.

44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45
"It is written in the prophets, `AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

47
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

48
"I am the bread of life.

49
"Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

50
"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.


51
"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

52
Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"

53
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

55
"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

56
"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.

58
"This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

59
These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
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  #567  
Old 17th October 2009, 11:24 PM
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51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

Living bread from heaven is Jesus' flesh/sarx. God Incarnate.

Mk. 14:22 And as they are eating, Jesus having taken bread, having blessed, brake, and gave to them, and said, `Take, eat; this is my body.'

God Incarnate, taking bread, this is my body/soma.

Two different words used in two different situations.

Why?
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  #568  
Old 4th August 2010, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
Bump. Where'd everyone go?

I'm going to restate this with some alterations.
I am still around, but for now, I am just lurking
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He doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'


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  #569  
Old 20th March 2012, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

Living bread from heaven is Jesus' flesh/sarx. God Incarnate.

Mk. 14:22 And as they are eating, Jesus having taken bread, having blessed, brake, and gave to them, and said, `Take, eat; this is my body.'

God Incarnate, taking bread, this is my body/soma.

Two different words used in two different situations.

Why?
Not sure I understand
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Gen 3:15
and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;
He doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.'


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Old 21st March 2012, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus View Post
Not sure I understand
After three years?
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