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Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.

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  #11  
Old 5th November 2008, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
If one believed that a system which is 50% supported by science and 50% not, is a truth, then there is no better word for it but to call it "religion".

An alternative is to call that system a model. I accept that evolution is a working model, but not a truth.
So, which 50% of the theory of evolution is supported by science and which 50% is not? Also, please note that science is not interested in "The Truth." Evolution is simply the best scientific explanation for the diversity and distribution of life on earth.
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  #12  
Old 5th November 2008, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Split Rock View Post
One of the strangest assertions of the latest incarnation of Creationism, is the idea that an atheist/agnostic’s “faith” in evolution is as strong, or stronger, than a Creationist’s “faith” in Jesus Christ as their savior. The way this works is to conflate two different definitions of “faith” as if they were the same. One definition is “a firm belief in something for which there is no proof,” while another is “something that is believed especially with strong conviction.” (from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary). The Collins English dictionary puts it this way: “a strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp. without proof or evidence,” vs. “a complete confidence or trust in a person, remedy, etc.” Obviously a “faith” held as an unshakable belief not relying on evidence is not the same as trust or confidence in something, that in the case of evolution, is based entirely on physical evidence. However, Creationists like to pretend these definitions are the same, as part of their penchant for the use of sophistry to score points for “God’s side.”

The question of course, is why do this? I believe the primary goal is to gain parity for creationism with evolution, in support of the assertion that if evolution is taught in a biology class, then creationism should be as well. In addition, Creationists are feeling inferior to their opponents in the debate, and want to feel equal to them. The question is, at what cost?

Creationists us the assertion that evolution supporters have “faith” in evolution as a kind of accusation. “You have as much faith in evolution as I do in Christ!” Or even worse, “It takes more faith to believe in Evolution than it does to believe in God!” WHAT? That’s right… here we have a Christian accusing a non-believer of having more faith than he or she has! It should be the other way around. A Christian to be asking non-believers, “why don’t you have more faith?” rather than accusing them of having more than they do! What does this do to the Creationist’s own religious belief? It demeans it. “Faith” in Jesus Christ becomes equivalent to having “Faith” that the Sun will come up in the morning, or that the Fire Department will come in time to save your house if a fire starts inside it. So in a poor attempt to gain “equality” with their opponents, the Creationists have reduced their own faith in Jesus Christ as their savior into something one might attribute to a light switch. How very sad.
You're right. It's a false equivocation in an attempt to gain equal footing. Note that they never apply the same equivocation to things like astrology or palm reading.
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  #13  
Old 5th November 2008, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Split Rock View Post
So, which 50% of the theory of evolution is supported by science and which 50% is not? Also, please note that science is not interested in "The Truth." Evolution is simply the best scientific explanation for the diversity and distribution of life on earth.
I am glad that you have this understanding. If so, I have no objection to your view of evolution.

And, please explain the same to other creationists. I believe they will understand. The key is NOT to say that evolution is a truth. To avoid misunderstanding, I would suggest that you say that evolution is a (an excellent ?) scientific model. Then there will be no issue on faith.

By the way, your science may not be interested in The Truth, but my science does. Otherwise, I will not do science.
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  #14  
Old 5th November 2008, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBear View Post
You're right. It's a false equivocation in an attempt to gain equal footing. Note that they never apply the same equivocation to things like astrology or palm reading.
If evolution were true, it would give a fundamental challenge to any religion. No other mystique could match its influence.
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  #15  
Old 5th November 2008, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
If evolution were true, it would give a fundamental challenge to any religion. No other mystique could match its influence.
But it isn't true --- God makes it plain that Genesis is to be interpreted literally.
Originally Posted by Isaiah 45:18-19
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
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  #16  
Old 5th November 2008, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
But it isn't true --- God makes it plain that Genesis is to be interpreted literally.
So why not post a Bible verse that actually says that, instead of something random?
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  #17  
Old 5th November 2008, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
But it isn't true --- God makes it plain that Genesis is to be interpreted literally.
That bit of scripture does not say plainly that God meant anything to be taken literally. He is saying that he established and created it, and made it to be inhabited. This doesn't point to literalism of Genesis at all. Even in a non-literal reading of Genesis, with evolution, God does all these things.
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  #18  
Old 5th November 2008, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
I am glad that you have this understanding. If so, I have no objection to your view of evolution.
OK

Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
And, please explain the same to other creationists. I believe they will understand. The key is NOT to say that evolution is a truth. To avoid misunderstanding, I would suggest that you say that evolution is a (an excellent ?) scientific model. Then there will be no issue on faith.
But it is more than a Model, it is a complete Theory. A theory is an explanation for a group of related natural phenomena that encompases not only models, but many observations and confirmed hypotheses and makes testable predictions. I never claim that evolution is a "truth." I do claim evolution is as much a fact as gravity and electromagnetism, and that the TOE does a remarkable job of explaning how evolution works.


Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
By the way, your science may not be interested in The Truth, but my science does. Otherwise, I will not do science.
If your "science" seeks only to confirm what you already believe must be true, then it is not "science."

By the way, I still don't know which 50% of the TOE is not based on science. Care to enlighten me?
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Last edited by Split Rock; 5th November 2008 at 09:57 PM.
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  #19  
Old 5th November 2008, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AV1611VET View Post
But it isn't true --- God makes it plain that Genesis is to be interpreted literally.
I thought Isaiah wrote that verse... since it appears in "The Book of the Prophet Isaiah." Or do you now claim that Isaiah is your god?
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  #20  
Old 5th November 2008, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
The "applied" part needs little faith. The rest would need the same "religious belief".
a) I think your definition of "religious belief" is likely very broad.

b) I think you just gave up a lot more ground than you realized. After all, common descent is an applied science. Yes, even chimps and humans sharing ancestry is an applied science.
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Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
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