it's unjust (and useless) to simply call them immoral, murderers and pro-death. And it's useless to wave Catholic magisterial pronouncements at them.
But we are on a Catholic board (and the thread just happens to be about a what a Catholic Bishop said in regard to a stance that is pro-life/pro-death.) If someone, anyone, intends the death of another, especially the weak and vulnerable--that stance is "pro-death (for death)". Simple as that. No "fuzziness"--just truth.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to God's ordinance. In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church." - Clement of Alexandria, Stromata --------------------------------------------------------------
" Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live." - Deuteronomy 30:19
Team Sarah!--A diverse coalition of women dedicated to values that Sarah Palin stands for
... but you are talking about everyone, not only about Catholics, with those labels about "murder" and "pro-death".
And I believe that the late Pope John Paul II spoke about the "culture of death". The truth is the truth.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to God's ordinance. In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church." - Clement of Alexandria, Stromata --------------------------------------------------------------
" Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live." - Deuteronomy 30:19
Team Sarah!--A diverse coalition of women dedicated to values that Sarah Palin stands for
To speak about a generic "culture of death" is not the same as labeling individuals as murderers and pro-death. Besides, you yourself (I think) said at the beginning of this thread that when you hear "culture of death" (or "pro-death") you think of worse things than the case I have set out - you mentioned , Satanism, hate, violence...
P.S. sorry, wrong, it was JoabAnias. Here is the quote:
"I am thinking more along the lines of being filled with wrath, anger, hatred, envy, jealously, fornication, murder or anyone who is desensitized to killing or psychotic, bigoted, demoniacally possessed, in some radical way can most certainly be pro-death.
History proves its full of psychopaths. Our modern day is no stranger to genocide and terrorism. All examples of being pro-death. "
__________________ In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas!
I believe in intellectualised rhetoric.
Last edited by Globalnomad; 4th November 2008 at 11:32 AM.
Has anyone noticed that the "pro-lifers" are successfully derailing the question? There is a fundamental difference between what I am saying, and what you are arguing against.
My argument is that a non-Catholic (thus, someone who is not held by the Church's rulings) may, morally, decide that taking his own life when it becomes intolerable, is NOT murder*; therefore, we have no right to call such a person pro-death.
*It can be seen, rather, as self-defence against intolerable suffering. Self-defence has always counted as an exceptional case when killing is allowed. Like war or the death penalty.
*It's still murder in Canada.
But I agree. When the sanctity of human life is not held to be self-evident , "life" is just a social concept that will vary with the mores of any given population.
To speak about a generic "culture of death" is not the same as labeling individuals as murderers and pro-death. Besides, you yourself (I think) said at the beginning of this thread that when you hear "culture of death" (or "pro-death") you think of worse things than the case I have set out - you mentioned , Satanism, hate, violence...
P.S. sorry, wrong, it was JoabAnias. Here is the quote:
"I am thinking more along the lines of being filled with wrath, anger, hatred, envy, jealously, fornication, murder or anyone who is desensitized to killing or psychotic, bigoted, demoniacally possessed, in some radical way can most certainly be pro-death.
History proves its full of psychopaths. Our modern day is no stranger to genocide and terrorism. All examples of being pro-death. "
I feel as though you have taken me out of context and I am loosing track of what your driving at.
I think all your questions and concerns can be addressed by encyclicals.
Perhaps ones on dignity and ecumenism in a much better way than I could ever put it.
I also said I see pro-death as a culture.
I do NOT assume those things of everyone who puports a part of that culture and neither do I think AMDG does.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Wisdom enters through love, silence, and mortification. It is great wisdom to know how to be silent and to look at neither the remarks, nor the deeds, nor the lives of others." - St John of the Cross, OCD"
"Look for Christ Our Lord in everyone and you will then have respect and reverence for all."
- St Teresa of Jesus, OCD"
Rom 14:22 -
"Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Blessed is the one not condemning himself in what he approves."
"There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing." - Archbishop Fulton Sheen
"Jesus, Mary and Joseph, I love you very much. I beg you to spare the life of the unborn baby that I have spiritually adopted who is in danger of abortion." - Archbishop Fulton Sheen
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
It is a sad fact that many secular minded people will agree with death as an option for others just so long as it isn't going to happen to them.
indeed
try asking a pro-abortion person if they would still agree with it if they were the unborn baby.
Originally Posted by Globalnomad
Has anyone noticed that the "pro-lifers" are successfully derailing the question? There is a fundamental difference between what I am saying, and what you are arguing against.
My argument is that a non-Catholic (thus, someone who is not held by the Church's rulings) may, morally, decide that taking his own life when it becomes intolerable, is NOT murder*; therefore, we have no right to call such a person pro-death.
hmm I've thought about it and I do see what you are saying, but I still disagree with you. Cause we all know that there is no such thing as subjective truth. What if someone thinks that murdering another human being out of revenge is not murder? Should we not put them in jail for that reason? Or say that their actions were justified by their beliefs? just because someone doesn't believe that suicide is murder, does not mean they won't commit murder if they kill themselves.. they would just commit murder without full understanding/knowledge. Maybe God would be more merciful to them for that reason. I don't know cause I'm not God. But objectively, what they did was murder. Their opinion doesn't change the fact that someone died. And like I said before..if the person wants to die, then they support their death, another way of putting this is "pro death".
I think this is important because... in our society, we have put "euphemism" labels on everything. Abortion murder is "pro choice". Killing the ill or elderly is "Euthanasia". etc. And maybe- just maybe - some people are feeling lead by the Holy Spirit to repent of an abortion, or whatever, or to not kill their baby or not kill their grandparents or not kill themselves.. but society tells them "no it's alright!! it's not murder!! you're just being pro-choice, and that's "progressive", that's "modern", that's totally alright!! why do you want to be like those religious fanatics??"
and they end up making the wrong choice? Or what if some other people really feel like they're doing the wrong thing, but they don't WANT to admit that and use the label as an 'excuse'.. "oh I'm not pro DEATH.. I'm just pro choice!".
but...someone still dies
maybe if we took away the labels, and called things what they are.. then maybe the non Christians/non Catholics would SEE that abortion = murder, euthanasia = murder...and won't be so likely to make the decision that it's morally acceptable!!
I'm reminded of something in a CS Lewis book... Screwtape, a demon, writes to another demon about how to tempt a human being - and says - don't let them think of things as 'right' or 'wrong'...but 'progressive', or 'intellectual', etc... jargon, not argument is our greatest weapon!
If we call it "pro choice" just because the pro-choicers see it that way, aren't we encouraging them to stay in their illusion? Because they are deluded by society, abortion doctors, etc, God might be more merciful to them than someone who understands that it's wrong and still supports it... but that's not an excuse to educate the ignorant...that's actually a reason why we should call things by their proper names.
just something to think about.. i dunno..
*It can be seen, rather, as self-defence against intolerable suffering. Self-defence has always counted as an exceptional case when killing is allowed. Like war or the death penalty.
Christ tells us to offer suffering to Him... if we don't call suicide "murder", then the people who support it wouldn't have the opportunity to learn that it's not "self defence"..
I feel empathy towards people who feel so much pain that they want to end their lives.. so I don't want to sound insensitive. But is it love to let a person persist in their illusions, when they might lead to a mortal sin? I'm not saying that we should try to dissuade people from killing themselves by calling them "murderers" - cause that would only make them MORE upset.. but in ordinary conversation, we should use terminology correctly, the way the Church uses it, and so be a good witness. IMHO.
I feel as though you have taken me out of context and I am loosing track of what your driving at.
I think all your questions and concerns can be addressed by encyclicals.
Perhaps ones on dignity and ecumenism in a much better way than I could ever put it.
I also said I see pro-death as a culture.
I do NOT assume those things of everyone who puports a part of that culture and neither do I think AMDG does.
Sorry, JoabAnias, the argument HAS become a little convoluted! I quoted you there simply to show that "culture of death" is a serious and complex concept - AMDG can't just use it to justify the label "pro-death" for those who believe that self-euthanasia may sometimes be morally OK.
Don't worry, in no way was I saying that you (or anyone else) assumes that whoever believes in self-euthanasia is also wrathful and demoniacally possessed!!
__________________ In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas!
I quoted you there simply to show that "culture of death" is a serious and complex concept - AMDG can't just use it to justify the label "pro-death" for those who believe that self-euthanasia may sometimes be morally OK.
And I used it to show that others far wiser than me were able to see the truth and speak it.
Don't worry, in no way was I saying that you (or anyone else) assumes that whoever believes in self-euthanasia is also wrathful and demoniacally possessed!!
And I think that those who are interested in killing unborn babes in their mother's wombs while deceiving and harming the mothers (for a few bucks) or killing off Grammy and Grandpappy to convenience themselves are royally mislead. I agree that we should not be euphemizing things, but instead we should be calling things what they are. That way folks will not be able to be mislead as much. Speak the truth. Murder is murder. Pure and simple.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to God's ordinance. In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church." - Clement of Alexandria, Stromata --------------------------------------------------------------
" Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live." - Deuteronomy 30:19
Team Sarah!--A diverse coalition of women dedicated to values that Sarah Palin stands for
Linear Mode
