First resurrection

Super Kal · #31 5th January 2009, 12:04 PM

couldn't say it any better than that, Bible2

amen

GrandGuignol · #32 5th January 2009, 08:50 PM

there are some really twisted opinions here. in my opinion when you hear the words think about it you are about to be asked to twist the verse. think about it doesn't it make perfect sense? Why would God make us suffer. none of his other people ever had to suffer. God would never allow satan to harm us. He always saves his prophets from harm.

A Brother In Christ · #33 5th January 2009, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by GrandGuignol

I'm just wondering is there anyonr here that believes rev. 20:5 is the first resurrection of the dead?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

....

other judgement like the Beast and fasle prophet are throw in alive yet DEAD

Super Kal · #34 5th January 2009, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by GrandGuignol

there are some really twisted opinions here. in my opinion when you hear the words think about it you are about to be asked to twist the verse. think about it doesn't it make perfect sense? Why would God make us suffer. none of his other people ever had to suffer. God would never allow satan to harm us. He always saves his prophets from harm.

YES GOD WOULD... if you actually think that nonsense, then what do you think John 16:33 means?

what did Lot go through while living in Sodom & Gomorrah? what did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendego go through? What did Daniel go through? what did the Jews go through in the reign of the Pharaohs? what did the millions upon millions of Christians go through in ancient Rome and the Papal Inquisition?

are you better than all of them? are you so much better than the billions of Christians who were killed for their faith in God that you think you don't need your faith to be refined?

Am I better than all of those people who were killed for Christ?
Heck no.

Gary777 · #35 6th January 2009, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by GrandGuignol

I'm just wondering is there anyonr here that believes rev. 20:5 is the first resurrection of the dead?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Sorry i didnt read trough every answer, so this may have been covered. Its a orthodox preterist gospel and kingdom centered interpertation of revelation.

The first and second resurection must be seen in relation to the first and second death, also mentioned in the same passage. Those who have part of the first ressurection will not be affected by the second death, the lake of fire.

Death has two major parts. The death that we now experience: death because of sin, physical death, kingdom of death etc. After the last day, the last judgement, the death itself, with all its dead in it, will itself be cast into the second death, lake of fire.

So its not about cronology really, but about KINDS of death under the big umbrella. Those who have part of the first death (spiritual death, they are outside of christ, which is the life of men) will also enter into the second death, symbolized by the lake of fire.

The bible says that the believer now have part in Christs ressurection. It is not future, but it is something we now have because of our union with christ by a faith covenant.

This is the first ressurection.

Those are the believers, and those will not be affectd by the second death. They will reign with christ as kings on the earth.

This is written specially about and to those who lived after the fall of Babylon, the olc centre of christianity, the great city, also called sodom and egypt, where our Lord was crucified, namely Jerusalem. But the principles is gospel and it is for all of us.

Rom 6:3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;

Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;

GrandGuignol · #36 6th January 2009, 09:02 PM

Joh 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

this is an example of too easy. a humble man who didn't try his own intellect against Gods might say something simple as he is leaving then he's coming back. A wise important man of great pride and intellect might say it's much more complicated. Of course that would mean that only wise men could understand it. Meaning the Catholics were right to try to keep the Bible from the average man.

GrandGuignol · #37 6th January 2009, 09:49 PM

"are you better than all of them?"

No.
Will you take a mandatory RFID chip in your arm if the rapture hasn't happened?

Super Kal · #38 6th January 2009, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by GrandGuignol

"are you better than all of them?"

No.
Will you take a mandatory RFID chip in your arm if the rapture hasn't happened?

absolutely not.

I don't care how technologically advanced this world gets, that technology is extremely prophetic, and I will have absolutely no part of it

A Brother In Christ · #39 8th January 2009, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by Bible2

There will be some unsaved people left alive at the second coming

ones that did not get the mark of the beast will survive till the end... then the Judgement of the sheep and goats will happen ... The Goats go to Hell .... before the millennium Kingdom

(Matthew 24:40) who will be forced to worship Jesus during the
millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3-4).

Going into the Kingdom all will be saved and glorified.. their children will have to decide to believe or not

Jesus and the
church will rule over them with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29,
5:10, 20:4-6). Some of their descendants wll become involved in the
battle of Gog and Magog, after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-9,
Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

---

The dead saints who came back to life in Matthew 27:52 came back
to life before Jesus' resurrection, at the moment of his death on the
cross (Matthew 27:50-52). And they came back to life in their
mortal bodies, like Lazarus had come back to life in his mortal body
(John 11:43-44), and like Tabitha would later come back to life in
her mortal body (Acts 9:40). For Jesus alone is the firstfruits of the
resurrection into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:20), and all those in
the church will be resurrected or changed into immortality at the
same future moment in time (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), at the second
coming of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17,
Revelation 20:4-6), which won't occur until after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7-21).

No scripture says that the dead saints who came back to life in
Matthew 27:52 ascended bodily into heaven.

Yes they died twice...

---

The entire church will never be removed from the earth (Proverbs
10:30, John 17:15,20).

1 thes 4:16-17, phil 3:20-21... someone is taking scripture out of context

---

The two witnesses won't die and be brought back to life mid-
tribulation, but near the end of the tribulation,

rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth

I agree that These Guys are raised up right before the 2nd coming

at the end of the
Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:11,15). And they'll be brought back
to life in their mortal bodies, because the second coming of Jesus
and the resurrection and changing of all of the saints into immortality
won't happen until the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,51-53),

Yet Mark 10:30 .....and in the world to come eternal life. 31 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last first

who is first and who is last ... Jews offered eternal life first recieve it last Dan 12:2,11-12 Gentiles offered last eph 2:11-12 get eternal life first 1 jn 5:11-14
what is being offered Here?

to become last one had to become a servant.. mark 9:35...
yet no man can before God saving them Romans 3:10-18

which won't happen until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

notice there is no angel gathering us in 1 thes 4:17... we are called to Him

For the same reason, the mid-tribulation translation of the 144,000
male-virgins part of the church to the throne of God (Revelation
12:5-6, 14:4-5) will be in their mortal bodies, like Enoch and Elijah
were translated into heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5,
2 Kings 2:11). The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be
the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4b) in the sense of being
the best part (Numbers 18:12) of the church.

the 144,00 are firstfruit of the dispensation of Law...

for we the Church are the firstfruits.. romans 8:23, Heb 12:23

---

The trumpet which will sound at the gathering together (rapture) of
the church at the second coming of Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17,
cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) won't sound until after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31). It will be the last trump (1 Corinthians 15:52),
after the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:2-9:21,
11:15-19).

---

Trumpets of God or angels trumpeting major difference

Isaiah 26:20 will happen before Isaiah 26:19, just as, for example,
Mark 6:17 happened before Mark 6:16. For Isaiah 26:20 refers to
those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during the
final stage of the tribulation, the vials of wrath (Revelation 16), still
waiting for Jesus' second coming, as a thief (Revelation 16:15),
which doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7-21, after the vials of
wrath are over. Before the vials of wrath, those in the church who
will still be alive on the earth will go into protective chambers which
they'll have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20). They
would have no reason to hide from the vials of wrath going on down
on the earth if they were already in heaven, not to mention already
immortal.

They'll become immortal at the same moment that all of the rest of
the church will become immortal, at the second coming of Jesus
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17), which
won't happen until after the tribulation, which includes the vials of
wrath, is all over (Matthew 24:29-31).

---

Psalms 50:4-5 and Psalms 75:2 refer to the same gathering together
(rapture) of the saints as Mark 13:27, which won't happen until after
the tribulation (Mark 13:24,27).

does not understand a mystery

Psalms 50:4 and Psalms 75:2 refer to Jesus' judgment of his people,
the church (2 Corinthians 5:10), which won't happen until his second
coming (Luke 12:45-49, Psalms 50:3-5), which won't happen until
after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

Psalms 75:3 won't happen until the great white throne judgment
(Revelation 20:11-15), which won't happen until after the millennium
and the battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-10), which won't
happen until after the second coming (Revelation 19:7-20:6).

---

Revelation may not have foretold RFID chips, because they may not
be the mark of the beast (Revelation 16:2). They're injected into the
triceps, where they're harmless, whereas the mark of the beast will
be placed on the right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16). An RFID
chip placed on the right hand or forehead, as in just under the skin,
could cause problems with the tendons of the hand or the blood
vessels of the forehead, not to mention that the chip would stick
out like a cyst just under the skin.

Instead of being an RFID chip, the mark of the beast could be a
symbol of the Antichrist, his name, or the gematrial number of his
name (Revelation 13:17) placed on the hand or forehead by
scarification. For the original Greek word translated as "mark" can
mean a scratch or etching, and scarification is the careful scratching
or etching of the skin just deep enough to leave a permanent mark.

Even though an RFID chip may not be the mark of the beast, it could
still secretly contain the gematrial number of the name of the
Antichrist: 666 (Revelation 13:17b-18); so it may not be a good idea
to have an RFID chip injected into one's triceps.

..............

Bible2 · #40 8th February 2009, 02:43 AM

God will allow some in the church to suffer and die during the
future tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13,
20:4), just as, for example, God allowed some in the church to suffer
and die during a first-century tribulation (Revelation 2:10).

It's given to believers "in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on
him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29). "We must
through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to
try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But
rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that,
when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding
joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

---

The first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) refers to the future, bodily
resurrection of the church (Romans 8:23-25) into immortality at the
second coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54,
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16), which is shown in Revelation 19:7-21.

Those who concerning this truth have erred, saying that this
resurrection is past already, overthrow the faith of some (2 Timothy
2:18).

---

The sheep and the goat judgment (Matthew 25:32-46) will happen
after the millennium and the battle of Gog and Magog, at the great
white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), for that's when
the unsaved will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake
of fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Revelation 20:15,10,
Matthew 25:41,46).

Before the millennium, at the second coming, only the beast (the
Antichrist) and the False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire
(Revelation 19:20).

---

Some unsaved people will be left alive at the second coming
(Matthew 24:40) to enter into the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19).
Jesus and the church will rule over them with a rod of iron
(Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the 1,000
years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6).

---

It hasn't been shown that Bible2 has taken any scripture out of
context.

Neither 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 nor Philippians 3:20-21 says that
the entire church will be removed from the earth, for that will never
happen (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20).

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 simply refers to the church being caught up
only as high as the clouds to meet Jesus in the air on his way down
to the earth at his second coming.

Philippians 3:20 simply refers to the citizenship of the church being in
heaven, meaning in the city of New Jerusalem which is now in heaven
(Hebrews 12:22-23), but which will descend to the new earth after
the great white throne judgment (Revelation 21:1-4).

Those in the church now go into heaven to be with Jesus when they
die (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

---

Mark 10:30-31 makes no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, but
refers to those in the church who "in the world to come" (Mark
10:30b) will obtain eternal life (Titus 1:2) bodily (Romans 8:23-25)
at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54,
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16, Revelation 20:4-6), no matter whether
they're Jews in the church (Romans 11:1, Acts 22:3) or Gentiles in
the church (Romans 11:17, 16:4b, Acts 10:45).

The only way to obtain eternal life is to believe in Jesus (John
3:16,36), and all those who believe in Jesus are part of his body, the
church (Ephesians 4:4-5), which contains both Jews and Gentiles
(1 Corinthians 12:13).

Mark 10:31 simply means that many in the church who are now first
in the church will become last in the church "in the world to come"
(Mark 10:30b), and that many in the church who are now last in the
church will become first in the church in the world to come, for in
the world to come God won't necessarily position everyone in the
church the same way that people have currently positioned
everyone in the church, often based on how they appear outwardly
(John 7:24), instead of based on the actual condition of their hearts,
which only God can know (1 Samuel 16:7b).

---

Daniel 12:11-12 could mean that the church will have to wait 1,335
days from the time of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31,36,
Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4) until Jesus' second coming
(Revelation 16:15, 19:7-21).

Jesus can't come to gather together (rapture) the church until
sometime after the Antichrist commits the abomination of desolation
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36), for when
Jesus comes to gather together (rapture) and marry the church he'll
destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).

Jesus won't come to gather together (rapture) the church until after
the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). That's why the marriage doesn't
happen until Revelation 19:7, after the tribulation of Revelation
chapters 6-18.

The church will have to go through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13,
Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

---

Note that neither 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 nor 2 Thessalonians 2:1
says that there won't be any angels catching up together/gathering
together the church to Jesus at his second coming, because angels
will be sent forth by Jesus to gather together the church at his
second coming (Matthew 24:31).

---

No scripture says that the 144,000 are the firstfruits of the Old
Covenant Mosaic law, for they are all Christians (Revelation 14:4),
and so are all part of the church, for all Christians are part of the
church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

The Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished
on the cross (Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19),
and replaced by the New Covenant by which the church is saved
(Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews
9:15).

And the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34),
necessitating that all Jews in the church remain Israel (Romans
11:1), and that all Gentiles in the church be grafted into Israel
(Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so be
grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

So the 144,000 male-virgins, firstfruits part of the church (Revelation
14:4) from the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4) could consist
of both Jews and Gentiles in the church.

---

Romans 8:23 means that those in the church, no matter whether
they're Jews or Gentiles, have the firstfruits of the Spirit
(1 Corinthians 12:13).

---

In Hebrews 12:23, the firstborn is Jesus himself (Colossians 1:15,18,
Romans 8:29b).

---

Trumpets of God or angels trumpeting is no difference, insofar as
angels can trumpet the trumpets of God (Revelation 8:2,7).

---

It hasn't been shown that Bible2 doesn't understand a mystery.

The mystery which Paul preached was already contained in the Old
Testament (Acts 26:22-23, Romans 16:25-26); it just wasn't
understood until Jesus opened the meaning of the Old Testament
scriptures directly to the apostles (Luke 24:44-47), including Paul
(Galatians 1:11-12).