Questions by Non-Christians (Archived)This forum is for non-believers seeking to know more about Christianity. This forum is NOT for Apologetics or debates.
Originally Posted by Borel
Are you saying I'm blinding myself from reality (where God is real)?
brinny: Yes
it comes as natural as breathing to do so. we have no love for, interest in, or desire to know Him.
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To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, "I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge" --Ravi Zacharias
"God is in the rain."~Evey in V for Vendetta
"The unexamined life is not worth living". ~Socrates
i hated it when God insisted i "yawp!"
but He knew i must,
and that my life would not begin,
until i yawped.
We all must learn to yawp.
we MUST awaken the passion,
that part of us that feels intensely,
and is NOT afraid to say so
or to express it.
Otherwise we are just dead men walking.
my journal/blog:
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Why are you concerned about it in the first place? That is what I don't understand. If you do not believe in God, it seems likely you don't believe in hell either; it would otherwise be incongruous. A concern about the latter betrays a perhaps subconscious belief in the former.
Unless, of course, what your concern is really about is the 'justice' of God (alleged to exist); i.e., whether God condemning unbelievers is a just thing for him to do, whether divine condemnation against sin is 'just'. That sort of question would be more consistent with your atheism (and an easily answered one).
Originally Posted by Borel
But why should only those who believe receive eternal life? How easily one believes is up to the individual. God could've chosen another attribute to whom he grants eternal life.
'Belief' is not what gets you eternal life. Nor is 'faith'. The atoning sacrifice of Christ is what gets you eternal life, his perfect righteousness in life and death and the triumph of his resurrection. Faith is simply the means by which one enters into a saving covenant relationship with God through Christ, who alone is our righteousness. To use an analogy, forks provide no nourishment; the nutrition resides in the food. But it is the fork that conveys the nutritional food; in a similar way it is faith that is the instrument by which we appropriate the saving work found in Christ alone, the Bread of Life. It is not belief or faith that saves us; it is the righteousness of Christ that saves us, and we enter into that saving work by faith.
Originally Posted by Borel
It's [as] if it said in the Bible that only blonde people get to heaven.
As noted above, (going with your analogy here) the Bible does not connect salvation with ANY 'attribute' of man. If “blond hair” is that by which we are saved, it is Christ—and only Christ—who has blond hair. You are bald. I am bald. All of mankind is universally bald. If I receive salvation at all, it is because of Christ's blond hair. I have none. Nobody does.
Originally Posted by Borel
The problem is, I don't think we choose what we believe. We believe what we conclude is correct from the evidence we have, whatever we might take as evidence.
The latter sentence contradicts the former sentence; namely, “whatever we might take as evidence” is a product of our “choosing what we believe” (in the category of epistemology, in that case).
Originally Posted by Borel
Although you guys are probably sick of this example, try believing that Sauron is real. It won't work, because you have absolutely no reason to believe he is real.
Describe Sauron to me. Describe his personality, character, and more importantly his being or nature. In very short order it will become apparent why this scenario is nowhere near analogous.
~ Ryft
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Founding member of the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . A logoleptic omnilegent obfuscating perspicuity!
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when he is
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason. ~ Oscar Wilde ~
My question is: "Why is non-belief so terrible?" Why should it earn you eternal torture?
You don't go to Hell for "non-belief". You go to Hell as punishment for your sins.
Especially as your god hasn't left any clear indicators that he even exists?
I disagree. God has made it abundantly obvious through creation and through His word that He exists. History shows that Jesus Christ, who is God, did exist on Earth.
I reject the concept of a god, I do not reject what that concept stands for (except for the stuff in the Bible even many Christians reject).
That's like a drowning man saying, "I reject life preservers but I don't reject what they stand for".
Why are you concerned about it in the first place? That is what I don't understand. If you do not believe in God, it seems likely you don't believe in hell either; it would otherwise be incongruous. A concern about the latter betrays a perhaps subconscious belief in the former.
I am not concerned about hell, I'm concerned about the fact that people think I deserve to go there, and that a benevolent god would send me there.
Unless, of course, what your concern is really about is the 'justice' of God (alleged to exist); i.e., whether God condemning unbelievers is a just thing for him to do, whether divine condemnation against sin is 'just'. That sort of question would be more consistent with your atheism (and an easily answered one).
Almost, it's mostly about a specific sin, whether nonbelief is something you deserve to burn in hell for or not.
'Belief' is not what gets you eternal life. Nor is 'faith'. The atoning sacrifice of Christ is what gets you eternal life, his perfect righteousness in life and death and the triumph of his resurrection. Faith is simply the means by which one enters into a saving covenant relationship with God through Christ, who alone is our righteousness. To use an analogy, forks provide no nourishment; the nutrition resides in the food. But it is the fork that conveys the nutritional food; in a similar way it is faith that is the instrument by which we appropriate the saving work found in Christ alone, the Bread of Life. It is not belief or faith that saves us; it is the righteousness of Christ that saves us, and we enter into that saving work by faith.
But to be saved, we would still need faith?
As noted above, (going with your analogy here) the Bible does not connect salvation with ANY 'attribute' of man. If “blond hair” is that by which we are saved, it is Christ—and only Christ—who has blond hair. You are bald. I am bald. All of mankind is universally bald. If I receive salvation at all, it is because of Christ's blond hair. I have none. Nobody does.
But, we need faith to be saved, don't we? And how easily one gains faith is something no human has in common with each other. Granted, the Bible doesn't say that those who gain faith easily are much more likely to be saved, but that's what it means if only those with faith are saved.
The latter sentence contradicts the former sentence; namely, “whatever we might take as evidence” is a product of our “choosing what we believe” (in the category of epistemology, in that case).
I don't think we choose what we take as evidence either. If someone told you that Superman is real, and he knows it because his friend's aunt's husband saw him flying around, would you take that as sufficient evidence? Could you take that as sufficient evidence and honestly believe Superman is real?
Describe Sauron to me. Describe his personality, character, and more importantly his being or nature. In very short order it will become apparent why this scenario is nowhere near analogous.
~ Ryft
I was only demonstrating you can't control your beliefs by asking you to believe Sauron was real. You could, of course try it on another religion. For example, I bet you can't right now honestly believe Allah is real.
Do you think I'm turning my back and closing my eyes on purpose? I can assure you I am not.
None of us want to close our eyes, lose sight of our aims, but we do.
You can't on the one hand say that you're open to the Christian God revealing himself to you and on the other hand dismiss the evidence that is the Bible on the other. The two stances are contradictory. Therefore I think I'm right in saying that you are.
Im gunna try and answer the original post. This is how I understand hell so far.
Humans were made to go to heaven, but we sin and because of this we cannot go to heaven or be in the presence of God because our sin would make heaven imperfect. So where to put all these people who have sinned? A place apart from God called hell. Hell (I think but might be wrong) is simply a seperation from God for eternity. All good things come from God and so there is no good in hell. Yeh it may suck but it is what we deserve. To be honest God could just wipe us out right now; an all powerful holy being doesn't have to put with ants on a speck of dust floating in space who use His name as a curse, why should He. I hope you understand what I mean.
My question is: "Why is non-belief so terrible?" Why should it earn you eternal torture? Especially as your god hasn't left any clear indicators that he even exists?
I reject the concept of a god, I do not reject what that concept stands for (except for the stuff in the Bible even many Christians reject). My point is, I am not evil.
And, it's not like I choose not to believe. I can't control it. Because I've never encountered anything in my life that would indicate the existence of a supreme deity (especially a specific deity) I find it very hard to believe in one. I understand if someone heard a voice from the skies or something like that and concluded a god was behind it (not commenting on if I would find such evidence satisfactory), but I have never encountered anything that would give me a reason to believe in a god.
I can understand punishment (although not eternal torture or anything like that) to someone who believes your god is real and still turns their back to him and worships the devil.
Thoughts?
The problem is that God is Life, Joy, Happiness, Peace, Mercy, Kindness, and everything Good and true. It isn't that God is picking on anyone, but rather it is just a matter of logistics and science.
Everyone who isn't in Him and with Him has the opposite place to live for eternity.
He is complete Truth.....and has never lied nor can He. So you see why it is impossible for man to return without some kind of way made. That is what Jesus is.
Blessings,
AOF
__________________ .....His body was broken for us, His blood spilled....
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Luke 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Luke 13:32....Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures....
My question is: "Why is non-belief so terrible?" Why should it earn you eternal torture? Especially as your god hasn't left any clear indicators that he even exists?
I reject the concept of a god, I do not reject what that concept stands for (except for the stuff in the Bible even many Christians reject). My point is, I am not evil.
And, it's not like I choose not to believe. I can't control it. Because I've never encountered anything in my life that would indicate the existence of a supreme deity (especially a specific deity) I find it very hard to believe in one. I understand if someone heard a voice from the skies or something like that and concluded a god was behind it (not commenting on if I would find such evidence satisfactory), but I have never encountered anything that would give me a reason to believe in a god.
I can understand punishment (although not eternal torture or anything like that) to someone who believes your god is real and still turns their back to him and worships the devil.
Thoughts?
Interesting question.
What evidence do you seek to believe in the existense of God?
I am not concerned about hell, I'm concerned about the fact that people think I deserve to go there, and that a benevolent god would send me there.
As I said, a belief that hell exists betrays an at least subconscious belief that God exists. And if you're concerned that people think you deserve to go to hell, then you must believe to some degree that hell exists.
It's like if someone told me that I deserve to be cast into the fires of Mount Doom in Mordor. That would make me chuckle. I would be amused. I would not have even the slightest trace of concern.
And a benevolent God does not send anyone to hell. A just God does. Keep in mind that God is not all-benevolent to the exclusion of any other attributes. Yes he is benevolent, but he is also just and full of wrath against sin.
Originally Posted by Borel
Almost, it's mostly about a specific sin, whether nonbelief is something you deserve to burn in hell for or not.
No one is condemned for unbelief. They are condemned for their sin, and in their unbelief—itself a sin—they remain condemned.
All mankind exists in a state of condemnation on account of sin. Those who belong to God, in their day of salvation move from death to life, from darkness to light. We ALL come from the same pool of death and darkness, of sin and moral ruin—and through unbelief, itself a sin, mankind remains there. We exist in death; only in Christ do we move to life. We exist in darkness; only in Christ do we move to light. We exist under God’s wrath; only in Christ is that wrath removed. We exist in condemnation; only in Christ are we justified.
Originally Posted by Borel
But we need faith to be saved, don't we? And how easily one gains faith is something no human has in common with each other.
It's actually one of the few things we do all have in common. The Bible is pretty clear: for natural man, gaining faith is impossible. If faith was up to us to acquire, with no help by God's grace, no one would be saved. That is why the Bible speaks of faith as a gift.
Just don't confuse faith with abstract belief or moral repentance, etc. There are distinct categories. For example, believing that God exists is not 'faith'.
Originally Posted by Borel
I don't think we choose what we take as evidence either. If someone told you that Superman is real, and he knows it because his friend's aunt's husband saw him flying around, would you take that as sufficient evidence? Could you take that as sufficient evidence and honestly believe Superman is real?
No. However, that has nothing to do with whether or not I choose what I take as evidence. Rejecting the existence of Superman is the RESULT of the evidentiary criteria I chose. In other words, I subjected the existence of Superman to the test of my already existing evidentiary criteria. I did not use his existence to develop my criteria.
Originally Posted by Borel
I was only demonstrating you can't control your beliefs by asking you to believe Sauron was real.
I am a former atheist who was asked to believe God is real. It would seem I can indeed control my beliefs. However, giving intellectual assent to something is not unconditional; for me to believe a proposition, it needs to meet certain epistemic requirements I have. I've been asked to believe that many different things are real; some of them meet the criteria, others don't.
The looming question I am building up to is this: If you are having trouble believing that God is real, maybe the problem isn't God. Maybe the problem is the metaphysical system you have chosen. What if it's faulty? How would you ever know? Especially when that metaphysical system, built upon unprovable assumptions, holds the criteria by which you judge everything else?
Start by asking yourself simple but profound questions. Does 'real' and 'exist' mean the same thing? Can something be real but not exist? What does it mean for something to exist? And so forth. For example, the 'metaphysical' criteria I once affirmed actually eliminated the universe as a whole, when I applied them consistently.
Originally Posted by Borel
You could, of course try it on another religion. For example, I bet you can't right now honestly believe Allah is real.
Don't make assumptions about my philosophical journeys, my friend. In addition to the years I've spent studying philosophy, I have also studied over 25 different world religions. I can reject the existence of Allah because I have explored these various depths. The rejection is for a reason, it is an informed rejection.
~ Ryft
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Founding member of the To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . A logoleptic omnilegent obfuscating perspicuity!
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when he is
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason. ~ Oscar Wilde ~
Last edited by Ryft; 22nd October 2008 at 02:01 AM.
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