I'm going to have to go home and do the homework on this, (to find the exact location) because "pastor" is most definately scriptural. And... from the greek, shepherd and pastor...SAME WORD.
"...and He gave some ... pastors and teachers..."
This is talking about GIFTS that God Himself gave to the church.
To be continued...
What is the issue is that the NT church did not have anyone who came at all close to matching the 'job description' of the modern pastor. The various ministries listed in Ephesians meant that no one person was capable of bringing a group of Christians into full maturity.
Amen to BlackSabb and that wasn't a fairy story and even if it was, it sounds more like a parable which Jesus used to teach us!!
Amen to Johnnz. I have said this time and time again in the course of conversation and you would think I was talking in a foreign language judging by the response!!
Amen to BlackSabb and that wasn't a fairy story and even if it was, it sounds more like a parable which Jesus used to teach us!!
Amen to Johnnz. I have said this time and time again in the course of conversation and you would think I was talking in a foreign language judging by the response!!
Hahaha, thanks for that. And I promise you, that definately wasn't a fairy tale-I didn't make that up. It really happenned, just like I said with no exaggeration.
I say this as a warning to anyone reading. Never, ever ask any pastor that receives his/her money from the church about the Biblical view of giving. It is clearly foolish to ask someone about the giving of money that has a vested interest for you to give.
My advice is to ask a number of Christians that don't receive any money from the church. For sure, you will get a variety of answers, but at least they'll be honest, independant responses. Not lies for the purposes to get money out of you.
Lies at any "CO$T".
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Here is another story. It was posted by someone on another forum. He asked the pastor about being paid or not and his reply was words to the effect of "I am paid by the church and I have to do what they say or I won't get my retirement pension from the denomination."
What is that verse "You can't serve God and money."
What is the issue is that the NT church did not have anyone who came at all close to matching the 'job description' of the modern pastor. The various ministries listed in Ephesians meant that no one person was capable of bringing a group of Christians into full maturity.
Actually there are several factors to bring in here. First, modern day pastors usually function as overseers, deacons, and a a host of other things, see I Tim for discussions of these roles. That means that for the modern day pastor, there is no one early church equivalent, but many. The pastor, or overseer as it were is suppose to be responsible for studying, praying, and "preaching". Wow, what pastor wouldn't love that to be the responsiblities of the job! That being said, a man or woman who functions as a modern day pastor cannot be pigeonholed into the "pay" of the early church. Yet the early church cared for their overseers by meeting their needs and even above. In fact, God commanded them to go and not worry about pay because "a workman is worth his wages". In other words, spreading the gospel is a job, worthy of pay, but the employer is God Himself, that basically means that we are to pay our pastors according to God's command. If we look at I Tim. that means in some cases double pay, that isn't poverty wages, people.
So let's summarize here. 1. a pastor should be compensated for the work he does 2. the pastor should be studying, preaching, and praying more than administrative, visiting, etc. 3. the pastor should not think about or worry about his wages, but rather trust God that it will be sufficient, and move on in contentment (confidence) that God is in control.
BTW, my husband was recently asked to consider the job of associate pastor in our church, they began talking of money and he refused to hear the amount, standing firm on the passages that tell us not to worry about the pay, that his duty is worth the wage, but his is to serve not worry about finances. Honestly, this is the kind of pastor you want, and if you find him, he is according to I Tim. worth double the pay. Oh and we accidently heard what the job was paying, and I am thankful that we decided what to do before we knew the wage because it is more than twice what we are making currently and would have been a stumbling block to our whole descision process. A pastor is a pastor because he is called by God, not because he can make a living being a pastor.
Just some thoughts for you. In fact, we are studying I Tim. in sunday school, so these issues have been coming up and we are exploring God on them.
Hahaha, thanks for that. And I promise you, that definately wasn't a fairy tale-I didn't make that up. It really happenned, just like I said with no exaggeration.
I say this as a warning to anyone reading. Never, ever ask any pastor that receives his/her money from the church about the Biblical view of giving. It is clearly foolish to ask someone about the giving of money that has a vested interest for you to give.
My advice is to ask a number of Christians that don't receive any money from the church. For sure, you will get a variety of answers, but at least they'll be honest, independant responses. Not lies for the purposes to get money out of you.
Lies at any "CO$T".
My husband has been a pastor in the past and could very well be in the future as well. And yes, I know we are some weird eggs, but let me offer this to you about asking pastors about giving. My husband's (and I agree 100% for the record) ideas about giving are that God lays it on your heart and you give, no sermons, no special services, in fact, he would rather not (if he can get it by the church) not have an offering collected at all, but rather a basket for box for those that God compels to give. In addition, he requested at the church, that his offering be used for missions so that he was not giving back to the same fund that was being used to pay him. In the previous post you will also see that he does not want to know what the pay is before taking a pastor position. In fact, we have a retired pastor in our church who for a season, refused all pay (keep in mind he was allowed to work the job part time, which is very rare).
I think I have to make another comment here, if your pastor is a thief, he is not sent by God. Period, end of statement.
A pastor should be learning contentment as Paul did, both in excess and in want. If he isn't learning that, he isn't spirit led and therefore not qualified to be the pastor of any group.
I don't know, maybe I just get testy over people overgeneralizing but never aspiring.
Actually there are several factors to bring in here. First, modern day pastors usually function as overseers, deacons, and a a host of other things, see I Tim for discussions of these roles. That means that for the modern day pastor, there is no one early church equivalent, but many. The pastor, or overseer as it were is suppose to be responsible for studying, praying, and "preaching". Wow, what pastor wouldn't love that to be the responsiblities of the job! That being said, a man or woman who functions as a modern day pastor cannot be pigeonholed into the "pay" of the early church. Yet the early church cared for their overseers by meeting their needs and even above. In fact, God commanded them to go and not worry about pay because "a workman is worth his wages". In other words, spreading the gospel is a job, worthy of pay, but the employer is God Himself, that basically means that we are to pay our pastors according to God's command. If we look at I Tim. that means in some cases double pay, that isn't poverty wages, people.
So let's summarize here. 1. a pastor should be compensated for the work he does 2. the pastor should be studying, preaching, and praying more than administrative, visiting, etc. 3. the pastor should not think about or worry about his wages, but rather trust God that it will be sufficient, and move on in contentment (confidence) that God is in control.
BTW, my husband was recently asked to consider the job of associate pastor in our church, they began talking of money and he refused to hear the amount, standing firm on the passages that tell us not to worry about the pay, that his duty is worth the wage, but his is to serve not worry about finances. Honestly, this is the kind of pastor you want, and if you find him, he is according to I Tim. worth double the pay. Oh and we accidently heard what the job was paying, and I am thankful that we decided what to do before we knew the wage because it is more than twice what we are making currently and would have been a stumbling block to our whole descision process. A pastor is a pastor because he is called by God, not because he can make a living being a pastor.
Just some thoughts for you. In fact, we are studying I Tim. in sunday school, so these issues have been coming up and we are exploring God on them.
I appreciate you and your husbands heart, and your posts in the thread.
I would differ in thought a little in a couple of things.
You state that there is no NT equivalent of today's pastor and I agree with that statement, but have to say, that means today's role of the pastor has greatly overstepped the original intention of what a pastor is (or perhaps instead of overstepping, misses the mark). It diminsihes the call of the other members to fulfill their calling in building up and edifying the body.
I wonder too about your description of what he is responsible for. Preaching may never actually enter a pastors role, although teaching would. There a great variety of ways of teaching without preaching. Visiting is definately a role of a pastor as biblically a pastor is supposed to seek out the hurt, straying, and scattered believers. They are also to bind up the wounds of the afflicted, give rest and comfort. See Ezekiel 34
You also talk often about the pastor, I would prefer pastor"s". Churches of almost any size have more than one pastor, whether they are recognized as such or not. It is one who is matured, or more mature in Christ. They care greatly for, teach and lead, people closer to Christ.
Associate pastor? I would hope all within a church are friends and workers with the pastors.
They are the ones who see the one struggling on the sideline. Seek out those who are hurt and being scattered from the flocks, care for their wounds, feed them with the Word of God, and give them rest, not turmoil and works, in Christ.
I appreciate you and your husbands heart, and your posts in the thread.
I would differ in thought a little in a couple of things.
You state that there is no NT equivalent of today's pastor and I agree with that statement, but have to say, that means today's role of the pastor has greatly overstepped the original intention of what a pastor is (or perhaps instead of overstepping, misses the mark). It diminsihes the call of the other members to fulfill their calling in building up and edifying the body.
agreed
I wonder too about your description of what he is responsible for. Preaching may never actually enter a pastors role, although teaching would. There a great variety of ways of teaching without preaching. Visiting is definately a role of a pastor as biblically a pastor is supposed to seek out the hurt, straying, and scattered believers. They are also to bind up the wounds of the afflicted, give rest and comfort. See Ezekiel 34
yes and no. Yes you are right, but most people in the church today expect the pastor to visit just to "make a show" of who they are. It isn't usually done as a way to seek out the hurt, strays, etc. We also need to understand that the overseers in I Tim. had the role of studying and praying, the deacons were to minister to the needs of the people. So where I agree (didn't say this one yet) that there are more ways to teach and all should be used (thanks btw for catching that for me) and that we should be seeking out and helping those in all different kinds of needs. The way most churches use visistation oversteps the biblical example of visitation. Now that is not to say that we should neglect personal relationships that develop from this type of visitation but rather that it was never the job of the pastor or overseer to visit every member of the church every week.
In fact, one of the churches my husband pastored it became a huge deal that in the first month he pastored, he didn't do all his duties and visit every couple hundred members, many of which were shutins. All this was to be done the first month he pastored and every month thereafter. On top of this, he had meetings, sermons, weddings, funerals, bulletins, church business, counciling, etc. This is not the type of visitation expected in the bible. Visitation is about taking time to get to know one another and ministering to their needs.
You also talk often about the pastor, I would prefer pastor"s". Churches of almost any size have more than one pastor, whether they are recognized as such or not. It is one who is matured, or more mature in Christ. They care greatly for, teach and lead, people closer to Christ.
where there are many in the church who do pastorial things, the thread has been talking about the leadership role of pastor as in the one or ones in front of the congregation weekly have they not? That is why I choose the term pastor. In fact, what you refer to as pastors seems to more closely refer to disciples of which we are all called, yet we see a special calling on the pastor role. That is why I make the distinction I do.
Associate pastor? I would hope all within a church are friends and workers with the pastors.
yes, we have a rather unique situation in our church at the moment and the bottom line is that there is a need for a more visible presence to help the current pastor with duties that he no longer can get done, it's basically to further lighten his load. Here is a brief run down. The church was a small country church in the middle of no where, averaging about 100 people. But they were out of room and land locked and so they couldn't accomadate the growth. Long story short, they purchased a building about 20 min. away, they expected maybe about 60 people in the new building the first sun. ended up with over 300 plus the 100 from the old building. Today, a few months later the average between the two buildings and two services is somewhere between 300 and 400 people. They currenly have a need for more than one full time person to accomadate all the people, (many not yet known to the leadership) and all the additional duties that have risen from this new change. In addition, they are trying to find ways to keep it one body in two locations, a unique move of it's own. In short, the body, and I think I agree with them, needs two or more people who can focus full time on meeting the people, getting to know them, meeting their needs, etc. For months now, the pastor has been the only full time person and lots of helpers, but the task is still simply too big for only one full time person whose days are able to be dedicated to only the body.
Now before accusations are levied, when we were asked about the associate position, both my husband and I flat out refused, but we were asked to pray about it anyway and so we have been praying for months now as to whether or not this is God's purpose, God's plan for us. It isn't a matter or me agreeing because we want or need a job, especially in the church. I agree with or without the job, because I know the burdens that fall upon a pastor and his family and know that our pastor is burning out fast, and that is with a host of people all doing what they can to help with the massive task that is before him.
They are the ones who see the one struggling on the sideline. Seek out those who are hurt and being scattered from the flocks, care for their wounds, feed them with the Word of God, and give them rest, not turmoil and works, in Christ.
One thing that I don't see your post as grasping, is that the pastor is the visible person in the church that you go to with your problems especially with over 200 new people who are still getting to know you and the body in general, it is the pastor that people go to first. He is the one they look to for guidance. Now as time goes on, the people find others they can talk to, share with, and that is a two way street, but it is the visible person that is first called upon and that guy, like it or not is the pastor and at least in our situation, is overworked and over burdened by that position. In other churches it is because people aren't doing their jobs.
edit: Our hearts are nothing more than a reflection of the God within and should be the natural state of every "mature" christian in the church. If your pastor's heart does not reflect the God within, he isn't the man for the job. Whether that be a board of "pastors" (the history of our denomination) or one or two men working with the body. The person or people in the leadership of the church must all reflect the power of the Holy Spirit and it is this that marks a church as God's or man's, not the way they pay or don't pay the pastor
Last edited by razzelflabben; 18th November 2008 at 01:29 PM.
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