Like as in the multitude of small house churches in chnia and elsewhere .. ? ..
Gives people a choice, to be daily part of and to effectively work as a living part of Jesus' body.
my understanding from what the Bible teaches is that there are people who are called to shepherd, commonly known as pastors, but everyone is a disciple and minister for God. When Jesus sent his twelve and 72 disciples out, he told them not to take anything extra with them, just the clothes on their back, no food or anything. Then he told them to find someone worthy to stay at their house and that if people wouldn't welcome them to shake the dust off their feet and leave the town. Matt 10
You see instances where Paul was given support from churches, Phil 4:14-20.
But at the same time we are asked to help each other out. James1:27.
The idea of leadership in my understanding was if there was a church in someone's house, they were considered "in charge." Hence servant. The letters and greetings are usually addressed to the person who owns the house to pass on to the rest of the church. Rom 16. When the work got too much for the apostles they carefully chose men who could do the work of caring for physical needs while they remained in prayer and ministry/preaching. Deacons. Acts 6:1-7.
Then as they grew, elders were needed to help care for the existing churches spiritually while the apostles did the church planting in other areas and kept up encouragement, support, exhortations, rebukes and urged the churches to remain pure and repent as they were being led astray. They also kept the churches constantly informed as to what they were doing. this can be seen in many of the epistles.
my understanding from what the Bible teaches is that there are people who are called to shepherd, commonly known as pastors, but everyone is a disciple and minister for God.
I agree... And He said to.."Go make disciples of all nations..."
A disciple is a student.
We - the sheep - are the ones who reproduce sheep. The shepherd leads and cares for the sheep. But in many churches, I hear the shepherd say, bring em in and I'll get em saved.
The shepherds of the NT church were not commonly known as pastors. That is a modern day construct to give credence to appointing paid personel who are brought in from outside to run the church.
The shepherds were the Elders. The word pastor only appears once in Ephesians 4 along with the other four ministries. Their role was to "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we reach unity in the faith and the knowledge of the son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fulness of Christ."
There is no mention of shepherding the flock, even though the word pastor means shepherd. The sheperding role of the elders was obviously different to the shepherding role of the pastor if we are to believe what this passage says.
Preparing God's people for works of service (diakonos) is to teach and show them how to serve one another, not to look after their spirtual and material needs.
I went to visit my parents this weekend in sw louisiana. My wife and I visited a small congragation sunday. 14 people counting ourselves. There was no paid preacher there. The men take turns to teach a lesson (one person each week as the Lord leads). I asked one of the ladies there about that and her answer was "why pay someone money to do that?" (gotta love dem old cajun ladies). They feel that there money is best spent helping others. It was really refreshing.
J.
I'm going to have to go home and do the homework on this, (to find the exact location) because "pastor" is most definately scriptural. And... from the greek, shepherd and pastor...SAME WORD.
"...and He gave some ... pastors and teachers..."
This is talking about GIFTS that God Himself gave to the church.
I had a discussion a few days ago with a friend who believes at the very least a pastor (thats what he calls preachers) should be provided a house. I asked him where in the bible was that found. Now as a disclaimer, he is motivated by the fact that he aspires to be a "pastor".
This is something very important I painfully learnt. Never ever ask a pastor who is getting paid from the church about money. It is a conflict of interest. There is a clear incentive for the pastor to downright lie in order to continue receiving money.
This applies not only to your own pastor where you go to church, but even asking a pastor of another church where you don't attend. This even includes asking a pastor of another denomination that you do not attend.
Do my words sound overly harsh, critical and cynical? Well, gather up around children, let me tell you all a story. Pull up your chairs and listen up.
In my second last church, my pastors were big on "tithes and offerings" and even went so far as to say that if you didn't give at least your mandatory 10% to the church, you were not really a Christian and would go to Hell.
This church eventually floundered, and the pastors transferred to another church where they were not in any leadership position anymore-just ordinary congregation members. The pastors gave up any aspiration for leadership, and resumed secular jobs.
I caught up with them after a few years, and I was very interested to know what their belief was on giving to the church-now that they were in a position of giving rather than receiving.
Well, surprise, surprise. The former pastors had a change of heart, and decided now that Biblical NT giving is optional, according to what is in their heart.
How very convenient. The husband even admitted that he pushed the tithing line in his church because of the struggling finances, as it was always a small church.
So the moral of the story is this; It is a clear conflict of interest to ask a pastor, who receives his money from the church, about giving. The answer is most likely to be a lie.
It would be like asking Dracula about giving blood!
My dear dad is a real hard core fundamentalist Christian. Very religious, very conservative, very fire and brimstone. Yet even he says that pastors are a bunch of crooks when it comes to money.
Can I hear an Amen?
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Last edited by BlackSabb; 14th November 2008 at 07:00 AM.
Even the OT frowned on these money motivated leaders.
Micah 3:5 - 12
"5You lying prophets promise security for anyone who gives you food,
but disaster for anyone who refuses to feed you. Here is what the LORD says to you prophets:
6"You will live in the dark, far from the sight of the sun, with no message from me.
7You prophets and fortunetellers will all be disgraced, with no message from me."
8But the LORD has filled me with power and his Spirit. I have been given the courage to speak about justice and to tell you people of Israel that you have sinned.
9So listen to my message, you rulers of Israel! You hate justice and twist the truth.
10You make cruelty and murder a way of life in Jerusalem.
11You leaders accept bribes for dishonest decisions. You priests and prophets teach and preach, but only for money. Then you say, "The LORD is on our side. No harm will come to us."
12And so, because of you, Jerusalem will be plowed under and left in ruins. Thorns will cover the mountain where the temple now stands."
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