Pre Mid Post - Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

all I see is your opinion.....

868 aphisteemi is the verb for apostasia which is the noun form

Guess what the verb defines the word....

the 10 example all have it as "departure "

please... attack my scripture not me personally

you are attacking the messenger not God word....

1st of all what ever point you are trying to make is mute because 868 aphisteemi is not the word used in 2nd Thess 2:3. 2ndly you are once again trying to manipulate the meaning of the word to fit your interpretation instead of what it mean. The word aphisteemi ''868'' means To remove ie, to instigate a revolt against/to desist or desert/to depart from/to draw away or fallaway, to withdraw ones self from.

So #1 it is not the word used and #2 if it were you could not confuse it with the catching away of the saints to be married to Christ.

My suggestion to you if you are going to teach the pretrib rapture stay away from Revelation 4:1 as representative of the rapture and stay away from saying that the apostasy of 2nd Thess 2:3 is a reference to the rapture. It just makes you seem desperate to prove the unprovable, and would invalidate any valid points you may have.

in your opinion

According to what the real meaning of the word apostasis is. I would say you are more disagreeing with Strong than me. I guess you know more about Greek than he.

Old testament scriptures show that God always
intended to save Gentiles under the new covenant
salvation of Jesus Christ (Isaiah 49:6, 42:6, cf.
Luke 2:32); it's just that people didn't understand
what those scriptures meant. But Paul was shown what
they meant (Acts 13:47, 26:23). He said that he
preached nothing (including the salvation of the
Gentiles) that hadn't already been prophesied in the
old testament (Acts 26:22-23). Indeed, the mystery
he preached about the salvation of the Gentiles
(Ephesians 3:3-6) was made manifest by the old
testament scriptures which had prophesied it (Romans
16:25-26).

And Jesus himself had commanded that the gospel be
preached to the Gentiles (Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19);
and Jesus had foretold that he would join believing
Gentiles and believing Jews into one fold (John
10:16), meaning one body (Ephesians 4:4-5).

The future and hope of Israel (e.g. Acts 28:20,
23:6, 24:15) is the hope of all those in the church
(e.g. Romans 8:23-25), no matter whether they're
Jews or Gentiles, for all those in the church, no
matter whether they're Jews or Gentiles, are heirs
of all of the promises made to Abraham and to his
seed (Galatians 3:16,29).

The scriptures don't teach a separation of the
church and Israel, but teach the opposite: that all
Jews in the church remain part of Israel (Romans
11:1), and all Gentiles in the church have been
grafted into Israel (Romans 11:24), made
fellowcitizens in Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), made
the very seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29); so that
the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b).
This is necessary because the new covenant by which
the church is now saved (Matthew 26:28,
1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews
9:15) is made only with Israel.

1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are addressed
to the church (1 Thessalonians 1:1, 1 Corinthians
1:2), the "body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:27,12-13,
10:16-17), and are also about the church, the "we" of
the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), those in Christ
(1 Thessalonians 4:16) who have been given the Holy
Spirit (1 Thessalonians 4:8).

Likewise, 2 Thessalonians 2 is addressed to the church
(2 Thessalonians 1:1), and is also about the church
and "our" gathering together to "our" Lord Jesus
Christ at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1).
His second coming (parousia) and his second appearing
(epiphaneia, or phaneroo: e.g. Colossians 3:4) are the
same thing, for when Jesus comes to gather together
the church he will destroy the Antichrist with the
epiphaneia of his parousia (2 Thessalonians 2:8: the
brightness/appearing of his coming), and we are
to abide in Jesus so that we might have confidence
and not be ashamed at his parousia/phaneroo (1 John
2:28: his appearing/coming).

When Jesus appears/comes, the church won't be taken
to the place prepared in the Father's house (John
14:2), which is New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2-3),
but only as high as the clouds to meet Jesus in the
air on his way down to the earth at his second coming
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), for the church will first
reign on the earth with Jesus as kings and priests
during his millennial reign (Revelation 5:10, 2:26-29,
20:4-6, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30). Only after the
millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15),
when a new earth is created and New Jerusalem descends
from heaven (Revelation 21:1-4), will everyone in the
church dwell in the place prepared (John 14:2).

The events of the book of Revelation also concern the
church, for Revelation was given expressly to the
church (Revelation 1:1, 22:16) and shows the church
going through the tribulation (Revelation 7:9,14,
13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4). The people forced to receive
the mark of the Antichrist in Revelation 13:16-18 will
be everyone in the whole world, for the Antichrist
will take over the whole world (Revelation 13:7b-8).
The church will have to go through the reign of the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4). As we
saw in 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, when Jesus comes to
gather together the church, he will destroy the
Antichrist (Revelation 19:7,20).

The discourse in Matthew 24 likewise concerns the
church, for it was originally addressed to the
apostles of the church, and refers to those in the
church who will be hated and killed during the coming
tribulation because of their faith in Jesus Christ
(Matthew 24:9-13). No one who has faith in Jesus
Christ is outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).
Jesus will come to gather together the church after
the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Regarding Matthew
24:16, there are many churches in Judaea today, just
as there were many churches in Judaea in the first
century (Galatians 1:22).

During the coming tribulation, a third old covenant
temple will be built (Revelation 11:1-2) and the daily
old covenant animal sacrifices will be restarted
(Daniel 11:31) once again by unbelieving ultra-
Orthodox Jews, not by believers, for believers know
that Jesus' new covenant sacrifice for our sins on
the cross (Matthew 26:28) completely abolished the
old covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15, Colossians
2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19) and all of its animal
sacrifices for sin forever (Hebrews 10:8-23).

The judgment of Matthew 25:31b-46 is the great white
throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which won't
take place until after the millennium and the Gog/
Magog event (Revelation 20:7-9).

---

No scripture says that the rapture can happen at any
moment; the Bible goes out of its way to counter that
idea and teach the exact opposite (2 Thessalonians
2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Revelation 4:5 doesn't refer to the Holy Spirit, but
to the seven angels which stand before God (Revelation
8:2); angels can be referred to as spirits/flames of
fire (Hebrews 1:7).

2 Thessalonians 2:7 doesn't refer to the Holy Spirit,
but to a powerful angel like the one who will restrain
Satan at the second coming (Revelation 20:1-3).

2 Thessalonians 2:2 means that they shouldn't let any
full-preterist teachings shake their faith (2 Timothy
2:18).

The departure first of believers in 2 Thessalonians
2:3 isn't a physical departure, but a departure from
the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), an apostasy. That's the
word used in 2 Thessalonians 2:3: apostasia; it's
used elsewhere to refer to people being taught to
"forsake" the old covenant law of Moses (Acts 21:21).
So 2 Thessalonians 2:3 means that people in the church
will "forsake", fall away from, the new covenant faith
of Jesus. This forsaking, or apostasy, will happen
during the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13,
1 Timothy 4:1).

None of the following verses use the Greek word used
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to refer to the coming
apostasy (apostasia) in the church: Luke 2:37, 4:13,
13:27, Acts 12:10, 15:38, 19:9, 22:29, 2 Corinthians
12:8 all use a different Greek word (aphistemi). And
1 Timothy 4:1 and Hebrews 3:12 show that even this
word aphistemi doesn't always refer to a physical
departure, but can (as apostasia does), refer to
people spiritually departing from, falling away from,
their faith; just as, on the flip side, 2 Timothy
2:19 shows that aphistemi can refer to people
spiritually departing from wickedness. So apostasia's
being derived from aphistemi doesn't mean that it's
referring to a physical departure.

It was understood in Paul's day that apostasia meant
apostasy; that's why Paul didn't have to add "from the
truth" to "falling away" (apostasia) in
2 Thessalonians 2:3. Some want to add "from the earth"
to apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, and change
apostasia to mean a physical departure, but that would
contradict the fact that the church is never going to
be removed from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John
17:15,20). It would also contradict Paul's whole point
that an apostasy and the revealing of the Antichrist
have to occur before Jesus comes to gather together the
church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), for when Jesus comes
to gather together the church he will destroy the
Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).
To try to turn the apostasy into the gathering
together of the church would be trying to make
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 say that Jesus' coming and
gathering together of the church can't happen until
the gathering together of the church happens first,
which would turn 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 into nonsense.

I haven't read the rest of the posts, but I would like to add here. From how I have always interpreted it, apostate is a falling away from the faith. The Bible says the end will not come until there is first an apostate, a falling away from the faith. Sad, but seemingly true. God bless.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to the falling away from
the faith, the apostasy (apostasia in the original
Greek), which has to occur before Jesus comes to
gather together (rapture) the church (2 Thessalonians
2:1-3). This apostasy, or departure from the faith,
will involve Christians running after demonic doctrines
(1 Timothy 4:1-2) which contradict the sound doctrine
of God's Word, the Holy Bible (2 Timothy 3:15-4:4).

noun form... as used in the context #646 in strongs
the verb form is #868 strong

Lk 2:37, 4:13, 13:27
Acts 12:10, 15:38, 19:9 22:29
2 cor 12:8
2 tim 2:19
heb 3:12
1 tim 4:1

all define it in english as departure....

Define the elders ... who are they not...
I challenge you thru scripture

Where in 2 thes 2:3 states in the greek word for faith.... it is not there... thus you are adding to God word...

Please read... above

#4102 strong... for faith is not in 2 thes 2:3

Once again adding to scripture ...
or taking your english tranlation as God's word ...

very dangerous

Context ... context

What did the thessalonians already learned!

1 thes 4:16-18... Rapture

1 thes 5:1-2 No need to worry about day of the Lord... not for them

why Rapture

Why does He give details... we are sons Gal 4:6-7, 1 cor 6:2