Are we debating differences in institutions here or discussing OBOB forum rules ?
It is not like this is CF overall site rules we are talking about, people will understand when they come into the Catholic Forum who we mean when we say "Holy See" and what we are talking about when we state "The Church".
If they'll understand then why bother having rules? I thought the whole point of forum specific guidelines was (1) to outline who could participate in debate and (2) to explain acceptable debate practice. The fact is that the definition of the word 'Catholic' (and equally what constitutes the 'Church') is contentious. I'm not all saying that you should adjust how you use either of those words but I think it's a basic courtesy, especially for those new at the site, to be clear who is and who isn't allowed to debate in your forum area. According to your suggestions then I as an Anglican would be able in good conscience to debate freely in OBOB and according to an Anglican understanding of those terms (Anglican, Church, Catholic) I'd be meeting all the rules. It's your forum, do what you want, but I really can't understand why you'd want to settle for FSGs which could result in potential uncertainty and confusion.
Anyway, I was just trying to be helpful but it's evident that my input here really isn't wanted so won't bother you anymore.
__________________
Mother of Christ,
Mother of mine,
intercede for us.
Amen.
"Thus abundantly hath the Church of England vindicated her reformation from all pretence of apostasy from the true, ancient Catholic and Apostolic Church...No new Church was set up; no new articles of faith brought in; no new Sacraments; no new order of Priesthood to minister in holy things... only the old were purged from impurities in doctrine, worship and practice. If we were the Catholic Church before, we are still so, and to better purpose." William Cave, The Unity of the Catholic Church maintained in the Church of England
The ammended rules look good to me, however I do have a concern with this:
"If you find a thread in another area of Christian Forums that you believe flames Catholics or attacks our faith in a way that violates Christian Forums rules then report it. Do not come into OBOB and post links to the thread in a manner that escalates a flame war."
For example, If we, over at TCL are having a discussion on the Augsburg Confession, Treatise on the Pope and the Power of the Papacy (where Luther refers to his Holyness as "The antichrist"), etc. etc. and one of our RC brothers or sisters stops by for a visit, they may take offense. This could result in a lot of unnecessary reports, and could impose on our own "safe haven". FSRs should apply to the specific forum only.
Also, instead of naming the Pope, how about "the Bishop of Rome".
Mark
Last edited by MarkRohfrietsch; 26th September 2008 at 07:49 PM.
Reason: Swear filter caught "looks good to me" and told me to wash my mouth? I restored "good to me", I did not swear, honest.
If they'll understand then why bother having rules? I thought the whole point of forum specific guidelines was (1) to outline who could participate in debate and (2) to explain acceptable debate practice. The fact is that the definition of the word 'Catholic' (and equally what constitutes the 'Church') is contentious. I'm not all saying that you should adjust how you use either of those words but I think it's a basic courtesy, especially for those new at the site, to be clear who is and who isn't allowed to debate in your forum area. According to your suggestions then I as an Anglican would be able in good conscience to debate freely in OBOB and according to an Anglican understanding of those terms (Anglican, Church, Catholic) I'd be meeting all the rules. It's your forum, do what you want, but I really can't understand why you'd want to settle for FSGs which could result in potential uncertainty and confusion.
Anyway, I was just trying to be helpful but it's evident that my input here really isn't wanted so won't bother you anymore.
Would OBOB-C be receptive to a sub forum for debating?
I think what "in full communion with" our Pope means needs to be defined.
Does full communion mean one is in agreement with all the Church teaches?
Or does it mean one can partake of the eucharist in a Catholic Church?
What does it mean?
I also would like to know what is going to be done to uphold long standing CF policy of not allowing any threads on controversial subjects to be protected from debate .
We have had an ongoing thread in OBOB on a controversial subject that has been absolutely protected and closed to debate - only one side is allowed to be supported. When this was complained about before, the temporary solution was to allow other threads to debate that topic, but allow this one thread to be protected.
For many of us the claims of this controversial topic by its supporters is an affront to our faith. Yet what is offensive and an affront is being allowed in a protected environment.
It is not enough to allow other threads on the subject. The issue is no controversial subjects be allowed protected threads for one side where the other side cannot debate it so that OBOB conforms to CF policy
If a controversial subject is going to be allowed to be posted, then all sides need to be permitted to express their views on it in every thread it is brought up in.
It seems to me that since such protection is continuing to be permitted in OBOB contrary to the long established policy of CF not to allow such a practice, then we need FSG's to enforce the policy of CF not to allow one side their voice while refusing the other side their voice in the very same thread.
It also seems to me we need guidelines regarding unapproved private revelations/apparitions/apparitions - these cause great controversy. Many other Catholic forums have adopted a no-promotion of unapproved apparitions/private revelations or even no-discussion of unapparoved private revelation of any kind.
I believe we need to adopt a no-promotion of unapproved private revelation/apparitions.
But minimally, OBOB needs to be brought into conformity with the policies of CF and any protected threads concerning a controversial subject be immediately opened to debate. it seems we need something to protect this right in our FSG's.
__________________
Theotokos, my mother, you who bore the Lord our God in your womb, you the gate through which he entered into the world lift my prayers up to your Son. Daughter of Zion, I want to eat of this blessed fruit, the blessed fruit of your womb, who hung on a tree, who's flesh is food indeed and blood is drink indeed. The Cross became the tree of life, the altar of our High Priest and Paschal Lamb. Theotokos! Theotokos! Most blessed of all women, pray for me, a sinner
It seems that on one side, we have Catholics who are not "Rad Trads", but they are more Traditional and they seek to be completely obedient to ALL of the Catholic Church teachings and they come to the OBOB to have fellowship and to be encouraged in the faith and to encourage others who are struggling in the faith.
Then we have some who are not Traditional in some ways, but Traditional in other ways and who have a different approach to the Catholic faith.
I refuse to label anyone as to if they are liberal or conservative. There is no liberal/conservative labels among Catholics or at least, there shouldn't be. If there is, that is our fault and it is not according to the Catholic faith.
Being Catholic means being Pro life. Period. There is NO gray area to dance between. But some are Pro-choice... and that is where some of the trouble starts.
Some struggle with understanding how can a Catholic be Pro choice and not be pro abortion since being pro choice leads to abortion or some other type of death choice. (Like euthanisia and medicated self suicide, etc). Catholics believe that All life is precious...
Catholics also struggle with social issues and how best to help those who need the help. According to our faith, we also take it to heart to give unto those who are hungry and thirsty and in need of clothes and shelter... it's trying to balance it all out... and then politics come into play.. and Lord have mercy... (praying)... that is when the trouble really does get started.
For me personally, it's not about liberalism or conservatism... it's about being Catholic and being obedient to Christ and the Catholic Church. It's about serving Christ and doing God's will for it is God's will that matters, not mine.
My prayer and hope is that Catholics along with all faiths can go beyond our politics, go beyond our own concepts of what is liberal verses conservative.
FSGs should be based on Catholic Dogma. No one should be able to post against Catholic teaching. Whether they are Catholic or a visitor.
If someone is struggling with their faith, they can start a thread and request prayer and share their struggle, but for them to debate Catholic teaching, that should not be allowed. Debating is about one thinking they are right while trying to prove others wrong. It's about winning... and when someone debates against Catholic teachings, they are debating against the Catholic Church and this should not be allowed.
Every safe haven should have a place that their theology (dogma) is not up for debate. Yes, questions are allowed. Yes, comfort and help and encourage those who are struggling and who need prayers... But no, to those who are activists with an agenda to push their own ideologies and their own goals. The OBOB has had enough of arguing and division.
This is my understanding of the situation with the OBOB. I would like to see FSGs similar to the ones that we had before 7/7/7. Michelina wrote some wonderful FSGs and those are the FSGs that I would like to have back. Imho.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Where Peter is, there is the Church. Where the Church is, there is eternal Life.
"The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father's role in an increasingly fatherless society"- Mother Theresa
"But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child - murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion?
As always, we must persuade her with love, and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts. Jesus gave even his life to love us. So the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love - that is, to give until it hurts... her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts. By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems.
And by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching the people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion". - Mother Theresa
Michelina is a strong Catholic who knows the Catholic faith better than most. She even was able to teach my husband (NewMan99) some things about our Catholic teachings. She wrote these FSGS for the OBOB and I think these FSGS are the best ones for our OBOB.
Rules about Political Threads
OBOB is a Catholic sub forum and it is perfectly legitimate for the members to discuss politics. Discussion of the moral and theological concerns that comprise the issues of our day is not only a valid topic…it is necessary for an informed conscience. These matters however must be discussed in a manner that upholds charity.
On these matters the United States Catholic Bishops have said:
We need to support one another as our community of faith defends human life and dignity wherever it is threatened. We are not factions, but one family of faith fulfilling the mission of Jesus Christ.
Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship: A Call to Political Responsibility from the Catholic Bishops of the United States
This applies to all issues covered under the teachings of Catholic Social Justice from conception to natural death.
In order to help foster civil and instructive discussion on political issues and keep with the Bishops view that:
How best to respond to these and other compelling threats to human life and dignity are matters for principled debate and decision.
The staff of OBOB will be using these rules of thumb to enforce the forum rules in political threads. In many respects the rule that is being enforced here is the flaming rule. So the following will be considered in two categories; flames and spite reporting:
No broad or inflammatory generalizations of someone’s political beliefs or stances in thread titles
Do not report a brother or a sister for simple criticism of or disagreement with a political figure
Do not insult a brother or sister because you disagree with a political point of view
Do not generalize Republicans as heartless
Do not generalize Democrats as against the Church
We will give little leeway on spite reporting in these political threads from this point forward
To clarify how this will be enforced we urge our brothers and sisters to remember:
Catholics will not be given notices or have posts deleted for defending the Church. How you choose to do it however is another matter. Flames are flames. Post with charity. Support your arguments. Things might be deleted and notices given for flaming even if you are defending Church teaching.
Catholics will not be given notices or have posts deleted for debating and attempting to make an informed decision on how to vote. However we are still a safe haven in line with the Dogmas of the Church. Direct opposition to and disrespect of those Dogmas is not allowed. Voting Democrat is not considered direct opposition to Church teaching. Do not report people for that.
Above all remember that Abortion will figure greatly in these discussions. Direct promotion of abortion, saying that abortion is just or a right will be dealt with immediately.
We pray as a family that the Holy Spirit guide our debates and discussions as a family.
We pray as a family that Justice, Charity and Truth prevail.
We pray that Joseph, who was just and good, guide our deliberations on Justice.
We Pray that Mary, so full of Charity and Compassion, guide our interactions with each other.
We pray that Jesus Christ, present and with us in the most Holy Eucharist, the source of all Truth and as Truth Himself…guide us in discerning the Truth in all things.
OBOB Staff
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Where Peter is, there is the Church. Where the Church is, there is eternal Life.
"The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father's role in an increasingly fatherless society"- Mother Theresa
"But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child - murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion?
As always, we must persuade her with love, and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts. Jesus gave even his life to love us. So the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love - that is, to give until it hurts... her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts. By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems.
And by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching the people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion". - Mother Theresa
I have some other concerns but will only address them in PM with E team Admins included because it would require their cooperation all the way up the food chain.
The longer these are put off the longer conflicts will arise.
Peace and God bless.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Wisdom enters through love, silence, and mortification. It is great wisdom to know how to be silent and to look at neither the remarks, nor the deeds, nor the lives of others." - St John of the Cross, OCD"
"Look for Christ Our Lord in everyone and you will then have respect and reverence for all."
- St Teresa of Jesus, OCD"
Rom 14:22 -
"Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Blessed is the one not condemning himself in what he approves."
"There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing." - Archbishop Fulton Sheen
"Jesus, Mary and Joseph, I love you very much. I beg you to spare the life of the unborn baby that I have spiritually adopted who is in danger of abortion." - Archbishop Fulton Sheen
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Anyway, I was just trying to be helpful but it's evident that my input here really isn't wanted so won't bother you anymore.
I don't see any point to your input other than to make the statement that Catholics should not be allowed to say the Pope is not the Holy See and that the RCC should not be called the Church in the Catholic sub-forum.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
One thing I ask of the Lord; one thing I seek: To dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, To gaze on the Lord's beauty, to visit his temple. I believe that I shall see the good things of the Lord in the land of the living.
It would be totally justifiable to refer to the Archbishop of Canterbury as the Holy See for example. To specify Pope Benedict would remove any 'wiggle room'.
I don't see any point to your input other than to make the statement that Catholics should not be allowed to say the Pope is not the Holy See and that the RCC should not be called the Church in the Catholic sub-forum.
Agreed...much of the agitation by certain "Anglo-catholics" everytime a rules / definition change is debated in OBOB has gotten a bit tiresome.
Linear Mode
