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6th June 2009, 09:55 AM
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Reps: 30,957,804,797 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Andreusz  And that is one of the problems with the Bible, and with those who believe it conveys the truth. It gets people killed for no reason at all (witches do not exist), and 'good' people stand by or actively take part in the killing.
Hmm, Christian scriptures did a good job of stopping a lot of the killing in Europe as it took over the minds of the Roman people and their "empire" that killed and subjugated peoples all over the earth. Of course the pagans went on to continue war and conquest outside and even in and on the Christian Romen Empire for centuries though.
So, can we compare paganism and secularism up against Christianity (Christendom) for bringing peace and modernity to a society and civilization? Europe (modern Europe) is the result of Christian political influence as well.
The vast majority (99%) of pre-Constantine Greeks and Romans were not "Christians," all of the pagan hordes waging war all over the world at that time and long afterwards were not Christians . . . and the Communists of the 20th century were also not Chrisrtians.
Care to compare numbers of the fallen and subjugated "In The Name Of" ???
History does not change because it is ignored. |
6th June 2009, 10:06 AM
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Reps: 2,469,870,434 (power: 2,469,875) | | Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan Hmm, Christian scriptures did a good job of stopping a lot of the killing in Europe
The Thirty Years War was about Christian scriptures. Christianity did absolutely nothing to stop wars between the various Christian states. Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan as it took over the minds of the Roman people and their "empire" that killed and subjugated peoples all over the earth.
The Roman empire (why the scare quotes? It was unquestionably an empire) ceased expanding several years before it adopted Christianity. And the Roman empire covered only Western Europe and the countries round the Mediterranean, not the whole earth. Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan So, can we compare paganism and secularism up against Christianity (Christendom) for bringing peace and modernity to a society and civilization? Europe (modern Europe) is the result of Christian political influence as well.
True. Modern Europe came about after two extremely destructive World wars, the first of which was fought between nations that called themselves Christian. Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan The vast majority (99%) of pre-Constantine Greeks and Romans were not "Christians," all of the pagan hordes waging war all over the world at that time and long afterwards were not Christians . . . and the Communists of the 20th century were also not Chrisrtians.
Never said they were. I am simply pointing out that Christianity is no less bloodthirsty than other irrational beliefs. Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan History does not change because it is ignored.
Once again, I agree with you.
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6th June 2009, 10:18 AM
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Reps: 30,957,804,797 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Andreusz The Thirty Years War was about Christian scriptures. Christianity did absolutely nothing to stop wars between the various Christian states.
You're blaming Christians for what europeans like to do? The history of european peoples is war, battles, wars and more battles. That didn't even change after the enlightenment. Blame Christians for not following the Gospel when they don't follow the Gospel. Again, "The Christians" that were non-euopean, wrote the guidelines as to how to be a Christian and what happens if you don't. Judge war and carnage by the guidlelines on war and carnage for Christians. That would be the practical and honest way to judge Christianity. Judeans were not europeans. The Roman empire (why the scare quotes? It was unquestionably an empire) ceased expanding several years before it adopted Christianity.
And was saved by it. There would be little Roman history if not for Christian forgiveness. Many europeans like to wipe away their subjugated's history. And the Roman empire covered only Western Europe and the countries round the Mediterranean, not the whole earth.
Tell that to the Egyptians and the Africans. But my point is solid. True. Modern Europe came about after two extremely destructive World wars, the first of which was fought between nations that called themselves Christian.
Please. The greatest numbers of dead are laid on the battle field by good old fashioned european behavior. Except of course the hundreds of millions killed by the atheist regime. Never said they were. I am simply pointing out that Christianity is no less bloodthirsty than other irrational beliefs.
Far less bloodthirsty. I'm all grown up Andy and have done my own research. I'm no longer in college and have to dance like a trained bear for my supper. Once again, I agree with you.
As I do you on European history. |
6th June 2009, 10:40 AM
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Reps: 2,469,870,434 (power: 2,469,875) | | | What I am saying is that from the time it became the official religion of the Roman empire, Christianity has provided its adherents with a license to persecute, torture and kill other people for no reason whatsoever. (The ostensible reasons being that they were witches, heretics or pagans.)
I am not saying that this is not also true of other irrational beliefs like worship of the pagan gods, or Communism.
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6th June 2009, 11:32 AM
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Reps: 30,957,804,797 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Andreusz The Thirty Years War was about Christian scriptures. Christianity did absolutely nothing to stop wars between the various Christian states.
The Roman empire (why the scare quotes? It was unquestionably an empire) ceased expanding several years before it adopted Christianity. And the Roman empire covered only Western Europe and the countries round the Mediterranean, not the whole earth.
True. Modern Europe came about after two extremely destructive World wars, the first of which was fought between nations that called themselves Christian.
Never said they were. I am simply pointing out that Christianity is no less bloodthirsty than other irrational beliefs.
Once again, I agree with you. Originally Posted by Andreusz What I am saying is that from the time it became the official religion of the Roman empire, Christianity has provided its adherents with a license to persecute, torture and kill other people for no reason whatsoever. (The ostensible reasons being that they were witches, heretics or pagans.)
Europeans supplied the europeans with reasons for killing and war. "Christianity" is immutably opposed to that. It is impossible to reconcile the Gospel and what Europeans did with Christianity. It's not just the True Scotsman comeback, it is actaully verifible history. Yes, yes and yes, I'll agree with you that people killed "in the name of" Christianity. But you and I can show how they were wrong for doing so. If it is progressive values to hold up, then progressive means fundamentalism 100%. I am not saying that this is not also true of other irrational beliefs like worship of the pagan gods, or Communism.
You left off the irrational belief that there is no God. |
6th June 2009, 02:14 PM
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Reps: 622,365,155,739,938,304 (power: 622,365,155,739,949) | | | So, let me see if I understand this correctly:
Christianity really became a big political power in Europe, and for a long time it was really the big place for Christianity. Now, it is being suggested that we cannot judge the actions of Europeans as actions by Christians even though they were Christians.
Does this mean that the true influence of Christianity is almost nothing compared to the influence of the true culture of people? |
6th June 2009, 02:22 PM
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Reps: 21,124,454,843,429,512 (power: 21,124,454,843,460) | | Originally Posted by b&wpac4 So, let me see if I understand this correctly:
Christianity really became a big political power in Europe, and for a long time it was really the big place for Christianity. Now, it is being suggested that we cannot judge the actions of Europeans as actions by Christians even though they were Christians.
Does this mean that the true influence of Christianity is almost nothing compared to the influence of the true culture of people?
I suspect that this is a phenomenon similar to the fact that Christianity takes pride in having billions of followers, but when it comes push to shove we learn that there are just an extremely small number of TrueChristians.
__________________ Why I call myself a „non-believer“ or „atheist“:
I can´t relate to any of the god concepts I´m familiar with so far.
Either I´m not convinced by the concept, or
– although not having a problem with the worldview itself -
I see no reason to call one of its elements „God“:
There are already more precise, more common, less loaded and less likely to be misunderstood terms for these elements.
E.g. I prefer to call nature „nature“, the universe „universe“ and everything „everything“.
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6th June 2009, 02:26 PM
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Reps: 30,957,804,797 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by b&wpac4 So, let me see if I understand this correctly:
Christianity really became a big political power in Europe, and for a long time it was really the big place for Christianity.
That is historically accurate is it not? It still is the "big place for Christianity." Neither the America's or any African nation has anyone speaking as the voice of Christians. Italy has the Vatican in place still. Now, it is being suggested that we cannot judge the actions of Europeans as actions by Christians even though they were Christians.
You judge actions of people by what they say and do. If a Italian Christian commits a murder and is convicted, he is convicted by Italian law. Are there Christian courts anywhere? Does this mean that the true influence of Christianity is almost nothing compared to the influence of the true culture of people?
In the majority of individuals, I think that even Jesus with his wheat from the chaff parable and the sower and the solid and unsound growth of the plants parable, would agree with that, but ONLY with those that keep their feet too much in their cultural milieu. |
6th June 2009, 02:28 PM
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Reps: 30,957,804,797 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by quatona I suspect that this is a phenomenon similar to the fact that Christianity takes pride in having billions of followers, but when it comes push to shove we learn that there are just an extremely small number of TrueChristians.
Yeast to dough.
Per Jesus. |
6th June 2009, 02:29 PM
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Reps: 30,957,804,797 (power: 0) | | | Atheist ethics and values, how are they based on anything else but a self-serving perspective? | | |
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