Atheist ethics, atheist values

Why wouldn't you? I guess you wouldn't if you weren't a moral and decent person but is that what you're really saying?

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"Few tragedies can be more extensive than the stunting of life, few injustices deeper than the denial of an opportunity to strive or even to hope, by a limit imposed from without, but falsely identified as lying within."

~ Stephen Gould


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Braunwyn, what is the point of having values or to be decent? Why bother?

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"It is a kingly act to assist the fallen." ~Mother Teresa

For me, it's because I'm a moral person. I have unshakable compassion and the suffering of most creatures repulses me. I don't really have much say in it to be honest. How about you? Do you have an internal moral compass or do you need to look outside yourself for moral sense?

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"Few tragedies can be more extensive than the stunting of life, few injustices deeper than the denial of an opportunity to strive or even to hope, by a limit imposed from without, but falsely identified as lying within."

~ Stephen Gould


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Good grief no. No moral compass or empathy or compassion in here. I was a selfish, self-centered person and my world revolved around me me me. My philosophy? It was why would i wanna do that? (be kind, compassionate, etc.)

Of course i'm referring to me, in all my glory, and left to my own devices. I've always wondered why someone would have an 'innate' moral compass or be 'decent'....where does it come from?

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"It is a kingly act to assist the fallen." ~Mother Teresa

I'm trying to understand how this plays out for you. It's difficult to imagine how a person could lack empathy one day and have it another. What was the transition like if you now exeperience empathy, etc? Or is it more fear/reward based?

It would be nice to pin point where exactly it comes from. Of course I think it's the brain as with all emotion but the why's to it have me at a loss. I've heard arguments of social advantage but when I consider things like suffering, in and of itself, I'm not really sure. For example, when I see an animal suffer, be it in a peta video or in RL I tend to sob. It just wells up in me, hence my sig.

I was hanging out on the beach in key west one time in the early 90's watching this bird die. It killed me but what made it worse was all the people walking around it. It kept trying to move out of the way but there were too many people for it to die in peace. That made me so sad and angry and I cried like a baby. I don't see the social advantage in that type of emotion but it's there for me any way.

Some people just have it like any charateristic I suppose. I figure compassion can be cultivated but I don't know how that would work out if a person has nothing to start with.

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"Few tragedies can be more extensive than the stunting of life, few injustices deeper than the denial of an opportunity to strive or even to hope, by a limit imposed from without, but falsely identified as lying within."

~ Stephen Gould


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I think it's pretty straightforward for me, I want to feel good about myself and I want to be able to look in the mirror and like what I see. You could ask, instead of working an 'honest' living, why don't I just rob people off the street? Some might say the law is a deterrent, I don't think it is even that, I've broken the law on countless occasions in the past (drugs and driving offences to name but two). The reason I wouldn't rob someone on the street or steal anywhere for that matter, is I'd feel really bad about myself, I'd feel guilty and I wouldn't like myself very much for doing such a thing. I'm happy when I'm making people I like or even complete strangers happy.

I think we are all selfish creatures really, just that our selfishness comes out in different ways (which sometimes apparently wont look selfish at all). People do good deeds for very much self serving reasons. The feel good factor for doing 'good' stuff can not be underestimated. Bill Gates recently gave away most his fortune to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation which will help many, many people. I doubt he would have done it, if it didn't give him a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

The bottom line is, I don't think I would have any chance of being happy if I was constantly making other people unhappy.

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Originally Posted by brinny

Good grief no. No moral compass or empathy or compassion in here. I was a selfish, self-centered person and my world revolved around me me me. My philosophy? It was why would i wanna do that? (be kind, compassionate, etc.)

I don't get that sort of attitude. I don't ever remember making a choice to care about other people. When people around me feel bad, I feel bad. When people around me are happy, I feel happy. When I can help someone feel better, I always end up feeling better. I have empathy for others, and can't remember ever not feeling this way.

I will state that my motives are purely selfish. I do nice things for others, because it makes me happy to do so. I try to treat others around me with kindness because I want to try and convince them to treat those around them the same way (and thus encouraging people to treat me the same way).

I believe in an afterlife, but I don't need a threat of punishment or promise of a reward after my death to convince me to act nicely. Personally, I can't imagine needing such encouragement to be a good person, and it somewhat confuses me that other people do. While someone's motives interest me, it is really their actions that count, not the reasons for those actions.

Originally Posted by brinny

Of course i'm referring to me, in all my glory, and left to my own devices. I've always wondered why someone would have an 'innate' moral compass or be 'decent'....where does it come from?

Personally, I think it is evolutionary. If human beings couldn't function in groups, they would never have survived. Just like rats, meerkats, or lions, we are a social animal and so certain things (like empathy) are hard-wired in most of us.

Those members of a social species that don't feel an instinctual connection to other members of their species don't fit into that animal society. There is a reason that humans call people who don't experience empathy "sociopaths". It is a mutation that is not beneficial to human society (even if it can be beneficial on occasion to individual humans).

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This is exactly what I was saying. "Ok, maybe I don't sleep around, but I get naked and have oral/manual sex with multiple guys I pick up in clubs - but I'm not having premarital "sex", right?

I think even kissing multiple guys you pick up in a club but have no interest in seeing again shows one's own selfishness.
Even Jesus said that if you lust in your heart, you have committed adultery. However, how many Christians will admit that they have "committed" adultery?

I remember Jimmy Carter, when asked if he had committed adultery, said that he had "in his heart," in thought. He was then criticized for it. Why? For being honest? For admitting that what is in one's heart has the danger of becoming word, and then deed?

Most people, not having done it physically, would simply have answered, "No," and have been applauded.

I guess more important to ask is, why do Christians only behave decently if it is explicitly laid out in the bible? Shouldn't simply asking if it is loving to your neighbor be enough criteria?

A Christian friend of mine used to talk about how good he was, and how he was earning a fortune up in heaven. He said that he would probably have rubies, and crowns, and gold, all which he would throw at the feet of Jesus. I asked him why he would need rubies and gold, unless he believed there would be a literal heavenly economy. He seemed to operate under the idea that he was going to get a heavenly paycheck. He applauded himself for obeying God.

Contrast this with my atheist friend. He doesn't believe there is an afterlife, but believes that helping others is its own reward, and by helping another, you have made the world a better place.

Which sounds more loving to you?

As someone said, if "doing whatever you want" to a Christian means molesting children or going on a murder spree, I'm glad they have the bible, because they seem to need it more.

Originally Posted by Beanieboy

This is exactly what I was saying. "Ok, maybe I don't sleep around, but I get naked and have oral/manual sex with multiple guys I pick up in clubs - but I'm not having premarital "sex", right?

I think even kissing multiple guys you pick up in a club but have no interest in seeing again shows one's own selfishness.
Even Jesus said that if you lust in your heart, you have committed adultery. However, how many Christians will admit that they have "committed" adultery?

I remember Jimmy Carter, when asked if he had committed adultery, said that he had "in his heart," in thought. He was then criticized for it. Why? For being honest? For admitting that what is in one's heart has the danger of becoming word, and then deed?

Most people, not having done it physically, would simply have answered, "No," and have been applauded.

Heck, plenty of people who actually have committed adultery would still have said, "No."

It scares me a little to think that there are people out there who want to save their virginity for marriage, but think nothing of having unprotected oral sex with multiple partners. I mean, no pregnancies (thankfully), but plenty of horrible STIs can be spread still! Even for oral sex, protection should be used (condoms and dental dams)!

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