Atheist ethics, atheist values

[serious] · #**1071** 23rd June 2009, 02:27 AM

Atheists also have a considerably lower divorce rate

roflcopter101 · #**1072** 23rd June 2009, 02:47 AM

The first section of your post is correct.

Originally Posted by Servant_of_Jesus

In the case of Christians, it is easy: the 10 Commandments and the teachings of Jesus define a very specific standard- thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, love your neighbor as yourselves, do not steal, etc.

And not only do Christians have a defined standard of behavior, but they also believe there is an omnipotent God who knows every move that they make and even lives within them as the Holy Spirit who instantly tugs at their conscience if they do something wrong. In other words, they know that when they sin, they will be caught 100% of the time.

I must note that some Christians do not always listen to the rules defined by Christian literature, just as not all citizens will obey the law, as Servant had said of atheists before that statement.
I would also argue that some Christian values are ambiguous as well. I doubt many Christians rigidly follow all of the Bible's commands to the letter, since much of the Christian world probably enjoys the consumption of seafood. By ignoring such rules, I would believe that Christians would also be setting their own standards despite risking divine wrath.
Though the core values of Christianity outlined in the 10 Commandments are clear, some of the laws are still not universally followed by all Christians, such as the remember-the-Sabbath ("casual Christians") and thou-shalt-not-kill (soldiers) rules.
As such, it would be difficult to distinguish important rules from not-so-important rules, yes?

So think about it- does not Christianity offer you something that makes it possible to live a good and righteous life here on earth, defined by a universal standard consistent with the one imprinted into your conscience, and reinforced by the Holy Spirit working within you? But a standard that is based on love- the love of Jesus who acknowledges that we are all sinners and sacrificed himself on the cross so that we may be reconciled with God and have a place with Him in Heaven.

Why not Islam?
Both have universal standards, right?
And Allah loves his followers as well, right?
As for a belief based on love, I think that the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is more <3ful than the Bible. As His Noodly Goodness said, "Purity Is For Drinking Water, Not People."
Plus, لله أكبر looks so much cooler than "Hallelujah".

You have everything to gain, and nothing to lose.

I believe that's Pascal's Wager.

roflcopter101 · #**1073** 23rd June 2009, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by RevSJameson

Explain what exactly Jesus said or did that was in any way irrational. Second, there is real freedom in Christianity as evidenced by our many denominations.

I'm not sure what irrational is defined as, but the "turning water into wine" thing and the "returning from the dead" thing are kind of hard to digest.
Anyways, I think Skaloop was referring to the burden of proof issue with Christianity, though it also applies to other religions.
It is best described with Russell's teapot.

Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Basically our dear Mr. Russell is saying that believing in a supernatural force without proof of its existence is irrational.

quatona · #**1074** 23rd June 2009, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Servant of Jesus

If you are really an atheist, you don't have to uphold any specific values or ethical standards;

Ok.

you can set your own standard and do whatever you want.

Yeah, that´s where we all start off. We are picking our standards (or we are picking our god(s) or other supposed authorities and his/their alleged standard(s) ). Or we pick a god whose alleged writings are highly interpretable and interprete it so the standards match our own.

In any case, as you correctly say, atheism doesn´t come with any specific value or ethics. Now, what you seem to miss is that nobody is fully defined by the term "atheist", and in view of the fact that it is just one lack of belief (and not a positive belief, and far from being a belief system or worldview), it must be assumed that their atheism is pretty insignificant to atheists, while their actual beliefs, belief-system and worldview are likely to come with standards. values and ethics.
Thus, I must say I fail to see your point.

You don't even have to worry about anything that society or a code of law requires- as long as you don't get caught.

I don´t see how this is any different for Christians. As we see here daily, there are many Christians who don´t worry about society´s ethical code and place the alleged code of their alleged god above it.

You also don't need to worry about what others think are reasonable values or standards- they have no more a right to define what they think your standards should be than you have to define what their values and standards should be.

As opposed to whom? Theists? Christians? Do they worry about what others think are reasonable values or standards? Do they think others have a right to define what their values and standards should be?

To explain: values and standards are relative terms- they can only be assessed relative to a defined standard.

This doesn´t even make sense. A standard can only be assessed relative to a defined standard?

But I guess I get the idea: You need a standard for making ethical judgements. Agreed.
I also agree that atheism doesn´t come with such standards. How could it possibly - it´s merely a lack of belief, and if someone´s worldview would be completely and sufficiently defined by being an atheist, they would certainly lack such a standard.

In the case of Christians, it is easy: the 10 Commandments and the teachings of Jesus define a very specific standard- thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, love your neighbor as yourselves, do not steal, etc.

While the standards of non-theistic worldviews and alleged authorities may or many not be as easy, there certainly are such.

And not only do Christians have a defined standard of behavior, but they also believe there is an omnipotent God who knows every move that they make and even lives within them as the Holy Spirit who instantly tugs at their conscience if they do something wrong. In other words, they know that when they sin, they will be caught 100% of the time.

I understand that for someone who functions on conditioning and threat of punishment this must certainly be a helpful idea.
However, it seems that you begin to drift far off-topic.

Christians maintain that the presence of a conscience in every one of us is prima facie evidence supporting the notion that there is a God- but, of course, an atheist does have a right to reject that line of reasoning.

Thanks. Particularly since the logical deduction to this conclusion seems missing.
Now, if it could be shown that our consciences are telling all of us the same, there would a least be some sort of basis for this idea. Interestingly, your alleged god allegedly gave commandments, an act that suggests that our consciences are not sufficiently congruent. Apparently we need to be told what our conscience should tell us.

I kindly ask you to understand that I´ll leave the rest of your post unaddressed, since it only leads further off topic and by and large amounts to proselytizing.

Veyrlian · #**1075** 23rd June 2009, 04:41 AM

[quote=Polycarp_fan;52158172]

Originally Posted by Veyrlian

I was once atheist and now I see.

In the light.

Somehow this smiley reminds me of Stevie Wonder.

Psudopod · #**1076** 23rd June 2009, 04:43 AM

Physics.

The universe is not random chaos. It is observable and provable through mathematics.

You haven't studied quantum mechanics, have you? The universe is not nearly as deterministic as we first thought.

Edited to add - how does a purely deterministic universe lead to god? Just because things require a cause and effect, doesn't mean that cause has to be a deity. You could have a cyclical system of one universe being born from the death of another for example.

Polycarp_fan · #**1077** 23rd June 2009, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Servant of Jesus

At the risk of repeating what others have already said, I offer these comments based on a limited read of the thread.

If you are really an atheist, you don't have to uphold any specific values or ethical standards; you can set your own standard and do whatever you want. You don't even have to worry about anything that society or a code of law requires- as long as you don't get caught. You also don't need to worry about what others think are reasonable values or standards- they have no more a right to define what they think your standards should be than you have to define what their values and standards should be.

To explain: values and standards are relative terms- they can only be assessed relative to a defined standard. In the case of Christians, it is easy: the 10 Commandments and the teachings of Jesus define a very specific standard- thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, love your neighbor as yourselves, do not steal, etc.

And not only do Christians have a defined standard of behavior, but they also believe there is an omnipotent God who knows every move that they make and even lives within them as the Holy Spirit who instantly tugs at their conscience if they do something wrong. In other words, they know that when they sin, they will be caught 100% of the time.

Christians maintain that the presence of a conscience in every one of us is prima facie evidence supporting the notion that there is a God- but, of course, an atheist does have a right to reject that line of reasoning.

You'd think that Christians would be awfully worried knowing that they are sinners, will always be convicted because there is a defined standard, and that they will be caught at their sins 100% of the time.

And that brings us to the essence of Christianity- that the Bible teaches us in John 3:16 that despite our sin,

16 "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

So think about it- does not Christianity offer you something that makes it possible to live a good and righteous life here on earth, defined by a universal standard consistent with the one imprinted into your conscience, and reinforced by the Holy Spirit working within you? But a standard that is based on love- the love of Jesus who acknowledges that we are all sinners and sacrificed himself on the cross so that we may be reconciled with God and have a place with Him in Heaven.

To learn more about this free gift, hit that little button at top right (beside the Home button) to learn more about how you can have lasting peace in this life through the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

You have everything to gain, and nothing to lose.

Watch what happens to your pearls.

Polycarp_fan · #**1078** 23rd June 2009, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Psudopod

You haven't studied quantum mechanics, have you?

Study as in being a scientist in the field? Don't get goofy.

I don't have to be a car mechanic to understand how a car stays working.

The universe is not nearly as deterministic as we first thought.

Gee ya think. Or our second, third, fourth and fifth thoughts too. But I like how we're headed scientifically and all. Especially on how the universe stays working. We Christians are loving science. It's in our blood to do so.

Edited to add - how does a purely deterministic universe lead to god? Just because things require a cause and effect, doesn't mean that cause has to be a deity.

It could be space aliens. But where'd they come from?

You could have a cyclical system of one universe being born from the death of another for example.

Ok, sixth thought.

And still you have that pesky something from nothing humming in all of our ears. It just doesn't ring true.

Psudopod · #**1079** 23rd June 2009, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Psudopod
You haven't studied quantum mechanics, have you?
Study as in being a scientist in the field? Don't get goofy.

I don't have to be a car mechanic to understand how a car stays working.

No, studied as in read into it. You don’t have to be a scientist to read up on concepts. I’m going to take it that you haven’t, seeing as you seem to have this 17th century deterministic clockwork universe in your head. Go read up on QM, it’s fascinating. Especially entanglement, the uncertainly principle and virtual particles. You’ll like virtual particles – something from nothing, an uncaused event.

The universe is not nearly as deterministic as we first thought.

Gee ya think. Or our second, third, fourth and fifth thoughts too. But I like how we're headed scientifically and all. Especially on how the universe stays working. We Christians are loving science. It's in our blood to do so.

Not to put a downer on the many great Christian scientists, but the church and Christianity as an entity don’t have a great track record. Individuals, sure, there were some brilliant Christian minds, but then that’s not surprising when most minds were Christian in the west. That’s just probability.
There’s still the creationists though.

Edited to add - how does a purely deterministic universe lead to god? Just because things require a cause and effect, doesn't mean that cause has to be a deity.

It could be space aliens. But where'd they come from?

Where did God come from? And how do we define what came before time? Your clockwork universe is breaking down.

You could have a cyclical system of one universe being born from the death of another for example.

Ok, sixth thought.

And still you have that pesky something from nothing humming in all of our ears. It just doesn't ring true.

No, cyclical system does not have something from nothing, that’s the point. I’ve not saying that’s the answer, just encouraging a bit of thought off the narrow path.

#**1080** 23rd June 2009, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

Study as in being a scientist in the field? Don't get goofy.

I don't have to be a car mechanic to understand how a car stays working.

OK so how does a car "stays" working?