Breathing with two lungs

Severos · #1 4th September 2008, 12:34 AM

While I consider Uniatism logically fallacious, as it creates a new class of people who are neither Orthodox nor Roman Catholic, that doesn't mean the call to unity should be unheard.

Breathing with two lungs

John Paul II once described the Church as breathing with two lungs, through the Eastern Rite and Western Churches. For too long have East and West lungs not breathed together. Certainly the Eastern Rite Churches contribute greatly to the function of the body of the Church, but still a great number of our Orthodox breatheren are separated from us, by ancient divisions in theological points.
Today two hopeful occurrences have happened to make it more hopeful that in the future East and West may breath together more powerfully, something which, considering the state of the world, can only be for the good...

Millions of Orthodox Christians would have been saved if not for Mark of Ephesus' rigidness, and the Christian faith would be much stronger with a united Europe.

With a Christendom undivided, how could the holocaust suffered under the Turks, the Nazis, and the Soviets have occurred? How could the fall of the Christian West and the rise of secularism have happened?

Let's not repeat the mistakes of our fathers. Mark of Ephesus may have been a saint. That doesn't mean he was infallible.

OuterWater · #2 4th September 2008, 12:37 PM

Thank God for St. Mark's steadfast commitment to Orthodoxy.

Rhamiel · #3 4th September 2008, 05:25 PM

Christian History would be much differant if the schism never took place, there are some real problems keeping our Churches apart but the power of Jesus Christ can heal all wounds, I hope and pray for unity between our Churches

Korah · #4 8th September 2008, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Rhamiel

Christian History would be much differant if the schism never took place, there are some real problems keeping our Churches apart but the power of Jesus Christ can heal all wounds, I hope and pray for unity between our Churches

It's getting worse, not better.
All the EO I hear are certain there is indeed a visible Church of Christ--theirs. There's no two lungs, just one is plenty--the EO only.
It's rather pathetic that so many young Western Christians can't abide the disunity they find between RC and various Protestants, so they think they solve the problem by going EO, into a wholly retrograde denomination. They're taking Pascal's Wager in the form, "If RC (or name your preferred Western alternative) is true, I won't be damned by going EO. If EO is true, I'll be damned by electing a Western denomination."
Absolutely disgusting.
Korah

E.C. · #5 10th September 2008, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Severos

Millions of Orthodox Christians would have been saved if not for Mark of Ephesus' rigidness, and the Christian faith would be much stronger with a united Europe.

Are you now claiming to be God by dictating who is, is not, will be, will not be 'saved'?

Originally Posted by Korah

It's getting worse, not better.
All the EO I hear are certain there is indeed a visible Church of Christ--theirs. There's no two lungs, just one is plenty--the EO only.
It's rather pathetic that so many young Western Christians can't abide the disunity they find between RC and various Protestants, so they think they solve the problem by going EO, into a wholly retrograde denomination. They're taking Pascal's Wager in the form, "If RC (or name your preferred Western alternative) is true, I won't be damned by going EO. If EO is true, I'll be damned by electing a Western denomination."
Absolutely disgusting.
Korah

What we as mere humans need to keep on remembering is that no one can dictated who God will judge what way. We just can't. Orthodox. Catholic. Protestant. Whatever.

Only one noun can make the call of who goes where and that is God.

I have no intention of uniting with Rome any time soon for a number of reasons. I have been there as a good 'ole Roman Catholic and to tell you the truth, from my experiences, the Eastern Catholic side of Rome is treated like crap. I went through nine years of RC school and not once did I hear of anything outside of the Western Rite. The only time I ever heard about Orthodoxy or even Eastern Catholicism was from my stepmom who was the only Orthodox person I knew at the time. In all nine years at RC school they never even mentioned their own 'allies'. They went into great length about how the Greeks were oh-so wrong in 1054 and after that they seemed to disappear from history. They went into great length about how Martin Luther was wrong from the Roman standpoint. But they did not ever mention anything about any other Rites or whathaveyou that was under Rome.

So really, I have been there and it isn't all that great.

Rome would need one hefty reform and revert to orthodoxy campaign that would take centuries before we can ever begin to dream of unity.

Korah · #6 10th September 2008, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by EmperorConstantine

What we as mere humans need to keep on remembering is that no one can dictated who God will judge what way. We just can't. Orthodox. Catholic. Protestant. Whatever.
Only one noun can make the call of who goes where and that is God.
So really, I have been there and it isn't all that great.
....
Rome would need one hefty reform and revert to orthodoxy campaign that would take centuries before we can ever begin to dream of unity.

I cannot disagree with anything you say, EC.
I converted to RC as an adult in 1969 and stayed with it until 1992 (and 77-92 in the Charismatic Renewal), but I thought of Eastern Rite RCs as privileged to have married priests (but not in the US anymore, I think it's changed).
I note that you did not challenge my analogy of EO as thinking of itself as the one and only needed lung. Because of their view of everyone else as heretical, as not Christians in the Church, it is the EO that need to change their attitude more than Rome does. Yes, I know you don't necessarily regard everyone else as damned, but regarding everyone else's sacraments (even baptism) as invalid is awfully....awful.
Korah

E.C. · #7 11th September 2008, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Korah

I cannot disagree with anything you say, EC.
I converted to RC as an adult in 1969 and stayed with it until 1992 (and 77-92 in the Charismatic Renewal), but I thought of Eastern Rite RCs as privileged to have married priests (but not in the US anymore, I think it's changed).

The last I had heard, was that any new Eastern Catholic priests that come around are not allowed to be married. I know that at least exists in the US, but I may have heard that it existed all around.

I note that you did not challenge my analogy of EO as thinking of itself as the one and only needed lung. Because of their view of everyone else as heretical, as not Christians in the Church, it is the EO that need to change their attitude more than Rome does. Yes, I know you don't necessarily regard everyone else as damned, but regarding everyone else's sacraments (even baptism) as invalid is awfully....awful.
Korah

Simply put: when a branch cuts itself from a tree it is no longer a part of the tree, is it?

Sure, I myself may regard many Protestant faiths as heretical. However, that does not mean that all are heretics or that I treat them like dirt. That was one thing that had struck me about Orthodoxy was that even if you were not Orthodox there was still love for ya. When I was a Roman and would visit my Protestant friend's youth group things would go well until any of the leadership found out that I was a Roman Catholic. Than the accusations of heresy, the blame for everything, the being told I worshiped a false leadership on earth, the jabs, the snide remarks and etc; would commence from not only the leadership but also from the youth group itself.

Yet whenever I had visited an Orthodox parish as a Roman Catholic and the common folk found out I was an RC, they would not care and still treat me like their own. So sure, while to anyone the Orthodox view of non-Orthodox beliefs may be considered imperialistic or even supremest; the difference is we still treat individuals as individuals and not as dirt. Kinda like the whole love the sinner hate the sin and in my experience I have not seen that outside of an Orthodox church.

Korah · #8 11th September 2008, 01:12 PM

Wonderful, EC.
Bravo to the EO who made you feel welcome even though you were a heretical RC.
It's possible, of course, that their openness was to the prospect of you becoming EO, and not at all to you visiting and remaining perennially RC.
And if we're going by anecdotes, there is no denomination more notorious than EO parishes for ethnic exclusivity. They're not only closed to non-EO, but to fellow EO of other nationalities. Only the many parishes composed of mostly converts would be likely to befriend a RC or Protestant.
Reasoning by analogy is fallacious, but let me turn the tables and suggest that each patriarchate is a tree, thus Rome being one among half a dozen. Better yet, how about a forest of bishops or dioceses. each one being a tree? Your own analogy is ridiculous, as it requires that thousands of Orthodox parishes in the West suddenly became not part of the "tree" when unbeknownst to them some dumb-bunny Cardinal Humbert presumed to excommunicate the Patriarch of Constantinople. So maybe the already baptized remained Christians, but their future children were all damned heretics? Even though the priest who baptized them was Orthodox and never heard of Cardinal Humbert?
Korah

E.C. · #9 11th September 2008, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Korah

Reasoning by analogy is fallacious, but let me turn the tables and suggest that each patriarchate is a tree, thus Rome being one among half a dozen. Better yet, how about a forest of bishops or dioceses. each one being a tree? Your own analogy is ridiculous, as it requires that thousands of Orthodox parishes in the West suddenly became not part of the "tree" when unbeknownst to them some dumb-bunny Cardinal Humbert presumed to excommunicate the Patriarch of Constantinople. So maybe the already baptized remained Christians, but their future children were all damned heretics? Even though the priest who baptized them was Orthodox and never heard of Cardinal Humbert?
Korah

"Damned heretics"? Hardly. I am not one to say who is damned or not and the like. That job is up to God and so I leave it up to Him.

One can follow a heresy and not be a heretic.

The tree is the Church. The Patriarch of the West cut his own branch from the tree and thus is no longer part of the Church. Sounds cutthroat and vindictive, maybe, but it is the truth.

I can understand why you'd say "ethnic exclusivity". However, that is in error. The Orthodox Church worships in the language of the people in the locale which is why we have Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian, etc; Orthodox Churches. Now, the whole mess in America here is a different story because when the immigrants came from Greece, Russia, wherever; they brought their Church with them. For the beginning of Orthodoxy being in America all the parishes and so forth were under one jurisdiction. Unfortunately, that jurisdiction was under Russia (due to Russia's ownership of Alaska before all the waves of immigration) and when the Bolsheviks took over, they tried to sell of all the parishes here in the States, which resulted in the mess we have now. The reasons why here in the States we see parishes with an ethnic identity is because of either that parish's history or its jurisdiction's history. Personally, I'm all for there being one Orthodox Church in America with English as its language, but knowing that humans are humans I know that that will not happen anytime soon. Especially since many different jurisdictions still consider their diocese(s) in America to be that of their diaspora and their higher-ups abroad not realizing that instead of ministering to mostly Arabs or Romanians in Arabic or Romanian they're ministering to mostly former WASPs (former because of the Protestant part of the acronym) in English.

It can a problem here, I will not deny it. But I have hope for the future.

Monica, child of God · #10 11th September 2008, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by EmperorConstantine

Especially since many different jurisdictions still consider their diocese(s) in America to be that of their diaspora and their higher-ups abroad not realizing that instead of ministering to mostly Arabs or Romanians in Arabic or Romanian they're ministering to mostly former WASPs (former because of the Protestant part of the acronym) in English.

Don't leave out Black American, Asian and Latinos who have come into Orthodoxy in the US, Mexico and Canada. The Orthodox Church is truly diverse in some areas of the Americas.

M.