Do you believe that the DAY OF THE LORD begins the great tribulation?
No, the day of the Lord happens after the tribulation as well as Christs return....same day.
Do you believe that the church is Christ's bride to be?
Yes.
If the questions above are answered YES, then how do post tribbers reconcile the fact that the call is made at midnight that the Bridegroom is coming?
Midnight is an analogy, not that the Lord is actually coming at midnight...1 Thess 5:7 ~ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. It is basically saying watch and stay awake..keep yourselves ready at any time awake or asleep. You better be ready before you close those eyes at night.
Matt 24:42-42 ~ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Post tribbers say that some of the church (Christ's bride) goes through the great tribuation, which is the DAY of the Lord. Scripture shows that the call is made at midnight for the 10 virgins.
So how can the virgins go through the tribulation in that DAY if they were called to the marriage during the NIGHT ?
Same answers as above...an analogy, not literally at midnight.
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Last edited by Big Mouth Nana; 21st September 2008 at 04:20 PM.
[/indent] How can the Day of the Lord END the tribulation if we're told that in that Day the heavens and the earth will melt away with fervent heat ?
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ALL of the church goes through the great tribuation ? Then you must believe that the dead in Christ (deceased members of the church) are RAISED first... otherwise how could they go through the tribuation ?
So how can you say that ALL the church will go through it ?
So you are saying that the dead in Christ are raised and then they will go through the great tribuation ? Is that it ?
alive implied....
the dead are awaiting their return to earth with Christ at the 7th trump/last trump/trump of God....
and the alive are gathered together with them....
marking the beginning of the 1000 year Day of the Lord.
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Do you believe that the DAY OF THE LORD begins the great tribulation ?
No. The “Day of The Lord” dawns with the coming of The Messiah to end the apocalyptic scenario unfolding on the earth at that time. Jesus said if He did not return to stop it no flesh would be saved (Mat 24:22). This is the point at which Christ subjugates the kingdoms of this world and begins to establish His kingdom which will never end (reference Dan 2:44). This is where He gathers His elect (Mat 24:29-31; Dan 12:1). This is not where human history ends. In fact you can find a lot of prophecy about things which must happen during this “Day” ending with Satan’s last stand and destruction.
Originally Posted by Ghost air
Do you believe that the church is Christ's bride to be ?
The church is symbolically referred to as the bride of Christ, yes.
Originally Posted by Ghost air
How can the Day of the Lord END the tribulation if we're told that in that Day the heavens and the earth will melt away with fervent heat ?
It is not a literal 24 hour day. The passing away of the old heaven and earth happen at the end of the “Day” (1000 years), not the beginning. The wearing out of the saints of The Most High (Dan 7:25) happens leading up to the beginning of the “Day of The Lord”; the appearance of The Messiah in power and glory, the gathering of His elect, and the establishment of His Kingdom.
One of the problems I see is that people are trying to take parables, and the symbols used in them, and find prophetic meaning in them. The purpose of the parables was to teach a lesson, and allegory should not be stretched beyond its intended purpose. Attempting to stretch their meaning beyond that is attempting to read more into them than was intended. The parable of the wise and foolish virgins is intended to warn us that we must remain faithful to the end (Matt 10:22). That end may come in death or that end may come at the return of Christ. The church has been persecuted since its inception. Many in the early church were killed for believing in Christ. They certainly did not escape tribulation. Persecution continues in the world today. During this discourse Christ told many parables which were intended to show that the church is to remain faithful to the end. Though many will start out the journey, many may not make it to the end of the journey. Some become comfortable and begin to slack off and backslide. The more time passes the easier it is to get comfortable and stop watching; stop being vigilant, and stop being faithful. The parables were intended to warn us against this behavior, and against this attitude of complacency. Once you stop expecting The Lord’s return, that is when it will catch you unaware and judgment will follow. Those that remain vigilant and faithful will not only watch but they will continue the work of the Kingdom, and those alive at that time will be found faithfully producing fruit and will be rewarded. This is the purpose of the parables; to remind us to endure till the end. Trying to read more into them than that is reaching.
We have prophecy which provides us with the details of what must come to pass. It is so plain that people must capitulate to the “Second Coming of Christ” happening at the end of the tribulation of those days. Jesus clearly states that He will send His angels to gather His elect at that time. This is clear. Prophecy and the teachings of the apostles line up with this. Even someone that believes in “pre-trib” must admit this. The “Second Coming” is clearly delineated in the prophetic timeline; in the book of Daniel; in the words of Christ Himself; in the teachings of the apostles, and in the book of Revelation. This means we know when, during the course of events, it is supposed to take place, and what events must precede it.
This is why Paul could say with confidence, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” (2Th 2:1-3). He could say this because he understood that certain things must happen before the “Day” of Christ begins. Another translation says it this way, “Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,” (ESV 2Th 2:1-3). If you refer to the Greek you will see that this is an accurate translation. In other words Paul was speaking to them “concerning” the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering which is associated with that coming (the resurrection). He was explaining that they should not be worried that they are already in that “Day” because certain things must happen first before that “Day” can dawn. While we may not be able to pinpoint a date, the faithful and watchful will recognize the season.
Now these texts are clear and unambiguous and they delineate “when” during the prophetic timeline the “Day” of Christ will dawn and the elect will be gathered. An overstretched interpretation of a parable, or of an allegorical statement, does not and cannot refute what is plainly written. Thus the flaw must be in the overstretched interpretation of the allegory. We find no place in Scripture where prophetic events are so clearly delineated, and begin with a “secret” rapture of the church. Not one prophet or apostle provided us with such an event preceding the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin; at least none that I am aware of. This should strike us as odd.
__________________ "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Heb 11:3)
No, the day of the Lord happens after the tribulation as well as Christs return....same day.
Do you believe that the Day of the Lord is one 24 hour day, or a thousand years ?
Originally Posted by Nana
Yes.
So you believe that Christ's church is the bride. So therefore, post tribbers believe that only SOME of the body of Christ will go through the great tribulation. I don't understand why post tribbers believe this.
Midnight is an analogy, not that the Lord is actually coming at midnight...1 Thess 5:7 ~ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. It is basically saying watch and stay awake..keep yourselves ready at any time awake or asleep. You better be ready before you close those eyes at night.
Matt 24:42-42 ~ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Same answers as above...an analogy, not literally at midnight.
So how do you know it's just an analogy ? Also, it still does not mean that we KNOW when the time will be, it simply tells me that it will take place in the NIGHT, and not in the DAY.
No. The “Day of The Lord” dawns with the coming of The Messiah to end the apocalyptic scenario unfolding on the earth at that time. Jesus said if He did not return to stop it no flesh would be saved (Mat 24:22). This is the point at which Christ subjugates the kingdoms of this world and begins to establish His kingdom which will never end (reference Dan 2:44). This is where He gathers His elect (Mat 24:29-31; Dan 12:1). This is not where human history ends. In fact you can find a lot of prophecy about things which must happen during this “Day” ending with Satan’s last stand and destruction.
I would agree with the exception that I also believe that the great tribulation is within the DAY of the LORD.
The church is symbolically referred to as the bride of Christ, yes.
What do you mean symbolically ? Are you saying that Christ's Church is not literally His bride to be ?
It is not a literal 24 hour day. The passing away of the old heaven and earth happen at the end of the “Day” (1000 years), not the beginning. The wearing out of the saints of The Most High (Dan 7:25) happens leading up to the beginning of the “Day of The Lord”; the appearance of The Messiah in power and glory, the gathering of His elect, and the establishment of His Kingdom.
I agree that the DAY of the LORD is a thousand years and that the elements will pass away at the END of it.
One of the problems I see is that people are trying to take parables, and the symbols used in them, and find prophetic meaning in them.
So when I see scripture which says that the call was made at midnight, then I accept that as the plain truth of scripture. Why would you or anybody suggest that the call comes during the DAY rather than what the scripture says... AT NIGHT ?
So how do you know it's just an analogy ? Also, it still does not mean that we KNOW when the time will be, it simply tells me that it will take place in the NIGHT, and not in the DAY.
Ghost air, did you even read those verses that I underlined??? Matt 24:42-43 ~ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come ; 43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
That is about as plain as it can get stating that we do not know what hour and what watch. That is how I know that it is an analogy regardng midnight. He could come at 6 in the morning, noon, 3 in the afternoon, 10 at night..anytime. The reason that it mentions night in the verse that I posted about "sleep in the night" and "drunken in the night" is because people are usually more unaware at night. Most are tired after working all day, watching probably some "godless" movie on tv, tossing down a few "brewski's"...pass out maybe etc. People better be aware even at night and be ready just incase He does come at night. We don't know when. Matt 25:13 ~Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day NOR THE HOUR wherein the Son of man cometh....Jesus own words.
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Ghost air, did you even read those verses that I underlined??? Matt 24:42-43 ~ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come ; 43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. That is about as plain as it can get stating that we do not know what hour and what watch. That is how I know that it is an analogy regardng midnight. He could come at 6 in the morning, noon, 3 in the afternoon, 10 at night..anytime. The reason that it mentions night in the verse that I posted about "sleep in the night" and "drunken in the night" is because people are usually more unaware at night. Most are tired after working all day, watching probably some "godless" movie on tv, tossing down a few "brewski's"...pass out maybe etc. People better be aware even at night and be ready just incase He does come at night. We don't know when. Matt 25:13 ~Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day NOR THE HOUR wherein the Son of man cometh....Jesus own words.
I DID read the verses Nana, perhaps you didn't read my response. I said that even though we are told in scripture that the call came at midnight, that doesn't mean that we know the hour.
We're not speaking of nightime and daytime in the literal sense, but rather in the spiritual sense.
When I read that the call came at midnight, that tells me that it's before the DAY... not before the daylight, but rather before the DAY OF THE LORD.
Post tribbers have only SOME members of Christ's church going through the great tribulation, while the other members who are asleep in Christ do not go through it. IMO that is inconsistent.
I DID read the verses Nana, perhaps you didn't read my response. I said that even though we are told in scripture that the call came at midnight, that doesn't mean that we know the hour.
We're not speaking of nightime and daytime in the literal sense, but rather in the spiritual sense.
When I read that the call came at midnight, that tells me that it's before the DAY... not before the daylight, but rather before the DAY OF THE LORD.
Post tribbers have only SOME members of Christ's church going through the great tribulation, while the other members who are asleep in Christ do not go through it. IMO that is inconsistent.
Oh okay..I read yours also. If you mean speaking of nighttime and daytime as in a "Spiritual" analogy, then that is what it means. Hummm, you see that as before the Day of the Lord with those verses? Odd. What is so strange about the bride going through the tribulation and not those that are asleep? Gee, if we all thought like that, we would all be wondering why since Christ ascended that those that have died never had to go through the tribulation either We weren't promised to live 2000 + years lol. It is inevitable Ghost air that we all are going to die at some point if Christ doesn't come first. Maybe this will help you that I just thought of and may have something to do with Gods reason why some do and some don't...Eph 1:3-6 ~ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5) Having predestinated(to determine in advance) us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Here is another one...Jer 1:5 ~ Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
In other words, this is saying that God chose us before He created the world. He knew us already before we were born. Evidently He chose those who would be born and die before the tribulation, and those of us that will go through the tribulation. All according to the good will of His purpose as the verse states. None of us knows the mind of God Ghost air. The Word states that His thoughts are higher then our thoughts, and His ways higher then our ways...Is 55:8-9 ~ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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What is so strange about the bride going through the tribulation and not those that are asleep? Gee, if we all thought like that, we would all be wondering why since Christ ascended that those that have died never had to go through the tribulation either We weren't promised to live 2000 + years lol. It is inevitable Ghost air that we all are going to die at some point if Christ doesn't come first.
I guess that is the point Nana. Why would the Lord allow some of His bride to be taken through the great tribulation (time of testing for the whole world) while the majority of them are asleep.
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Another reason why I do not believe that some of His bride goes through the tribulation is that I see the great tribuation as the beginning of the DAY of the LORD, which is God's judgment and wrath coming against the whole world. I believe that this is why the Thess were unsettled in their thinking that the DAY had already come.
So how does it all work out in the post trib mindset ? God allows SOME of His bride to go through the great tribulation while the others are asleep, and then He resurrects those who are asleep at His coming ?
Doesn't the marriage of the Lamb take place before He comes ? Do these who go through the great tribulation not get a chance to go to their own wedding ?
etc. People better be aware even at night and be ready just incase He does come at night. We don't know when.
We weren't promised to live 2000 + years lol. It is inevitable Ghost air that we all are going to die at some point if Christ doesn't come first. 
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