Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Should have realized that most of you were non-Christians... If you want to bash me on the grounds of my Religion, then I'll be happy to debate with you on that, for a now MUCH, MUCH more about Theology and Philiosophy then religion (go figure ).. LorentzHA and Arikay, I would love to debate with you to on whether or not God is real of the grounds on other grounds.... We'll see how it would go from there (There are other ways to prove creation other then science).
First, you must realize the argument was directed at another who believed that the universe regenerated itself every now and then. He based this belief on the grounds that you cannot create, nor destroy matter. Therefore the universe had to have always been. So some of the arguments were designed to go right along with what he believed, not evolution as many see it. But with that said.... I went to a few sites to find out what many said of the Big Bang theory. Here are two that sum it up..
The first states the theory of the Big Bang as a "cosmic explosion that hurled matter and in all directions."
IN 1927 Georges Lemaître based the Big Bang on an explosion of one atom that created the universe. Edwin Hubble found evidence to justify this theory by stating that nebulas are flying away from us at speeds in per portion to their distance. It has been deemed acceptable because of the radiation, or as a way they could explain it... It ends with this statement. "Although the Big Bang Theory is widely accepted, it probably will never be proved; consequentially, leaving a number of tough, unanswered questions. "
The second is quite greater in detail. They believe the universe was created by helium and hydrogen, yet it too says the universe was created from an explosion that sent matter and antimatter rushing in every direction. The particles were hot, though began to cool almost immediately. It states that all energy and particles were contained in one sphere in the universe, before launched out in space.
At that, you can check multiple sources (even on-line) and find the theory of the Big Bang is as was stated. Right along the same lines as I previously stated, with a few slight adjustments. Darwin didn't create the Big Bang Theory, though my whole writing of the Big bang theory was along the lines of focusing in on our solar system (Though I do know the difference between solar system and Universe: Though some scientists believe there are many universes, and we're in sort of a multiverse system.. Or so I have read.
Originally Posted by Lorentz
I do not think I have ever read anything more wrong.
Do you study Philosophy or Theology much? Even on this board? I've seen many things that are more incorrect (Like Islam).
It is obvious you know little or nothing of Physics, because if you did you would die of embarrassment to even post this trash.
And you have yet to disprove it. On the grounds of the popular view of the Big Bang, there would be no body of gravity to slow, or stop the flying particles of matter. And therefore they would be hurled into the deep recess of space. It's called the basic laws of gravity
Gravity - 1. Force that draws toward center of attraction
Gravitation - 1. Physics Attraction towards center; force of attraction between bodies
From the pen of Webster
What the first cause is we do not know. Deity could certainly be an explanation, although not nec. the best one.
And you don't even know why? Is it because the heavenly nebulas and such are moving away. Couldn't a "Deity" could have just set those into motion as well? Though by saying "Deity" you leave yourself wide opening for questioning. What "deity" might you be referring to?
Tying your faith to bad and/or falsified science will make them both go under-together.
Oh, but I didn't.......
Science is the study of creation QUIT trying to dumb it down!
We can go on the grounds of Christianity. The thought of a Big Bang is completely un-Biblical...... So why would you (if a Christian) believe it?
People like you drive away intellectual people from church
Really? You leave that open for several things. A. You are calling me stupid and retard, in the sense that I don't mind; I've had Muslims call me "Satan" before. Yet you do not know me, nor have seen anything of me and still you judge, which puts you in an ignorant standpoint. B. You are limiting God to only a few ways to get people into church. If I were to hinder someone (God forbid), it doesn't permitly send them out. God works in ways beyond our understanding and has made the wise stumble at the simple.... And something not coinciding with what you believe doesn't mean it will drive people away... I could go on, but this isn't the forum....
Originally Posted by Mike
Lyle, if the data tells us that there was no flood or that the earth was not made in 6-24 hour days it does not mean that the Bible is false. At most it means that you have not correctly interpreted the intention of the Genesis account.
Hmmmmm, but wouldn't it then? If there was no flood, there is a good deal of the Bible that is false. And if one part is wrong, wouldn't that make the rest in error as well? Besides that, why are there fish in the Swiss Alps?
Last edited by Lyle; 28th November 2003 at 02:07 PM.
And look up, The Big Bang Theory. From there you will be able to tell what the standard Big Bang Theory is
no, no dust.
In accordance to the theories I found, yes. Maybe not using the word dust, but particles/matter
the sun has nothing to do with chemistry.
It does have a Chemical make-up, right? Then the Chemicals that make up the sun would to have set right, in the right place...
nope, after several other stars had come and gone (to produce the heavy atoms) then the gases remaining formed into a protoplanetary disk. the sun and planets settled out of this. essentially your whole formation description is completely wrong
The way NASA states it, all particles/matter were gathered in one area, there weren't several stars that had come and gone.. And as a side note, where did those stars come from? But still, if you are stating that these stars were by-products of the Big Bang, then you still have to explain what gravitational force slowed down this particles/matter and formed it into a star? And where did that gravitational body come from?
nope, this is nothing to do with the big bang theory.
What? That had nothing to do with the comment I made....
LOL... I have never heard anything quite so wrong. Charles Darwin had nothing to do with the Big Bang!!!!!!
Opps, my bad... I didn't even realize as I was typing that out, at that point.. The argument was written at 2:00am, a few months ago..
that was a rather pointless rebuttal of a strawman of your own devising.
My own devising? What, my rebuttal, or the theory of the Big Bang, or both? The Big Bang that I put forward is the normal example many believe today... Look it up on the web through the search engines I provided.
another strawman. I won't even go into this one, since no-one has ever suggested this is how the universe works.
That was written to another person, the one before mentioned. Who believes the Universe cycles itself....
well the sun's diameter actually oscillates, so this is a false extrapolation of it's current behaviour.
But the sun is burning, no? And chemicals will burn themselves off, again going along the lines of the Second law of Thermodynamics. That any natural body will decay if left alone....
hm? sorry? plant life came about the same way as all other life.
I wasn't referring to that, but rather the fossil record shows that plant life has always been the same... That's what I was referring to. Although everything has changed, good old plants have always been the same.. But as a side note, why are there plants? Or I should start, what is your theory of evolution? Then I'll ask a few friendly questions Maybe even learn a thing or five
not really. the primordial soup is basically a chemical mix of all the chemicals that were around during the earth's formation.
I didn't think all chemicals could mix, and I don't see why life (if it came from this soup) wouldn't show all chemicals in each creature.... Or for that matter, why didn't the "soup" just stay "soup?" There would be n stimulating force that would give it the desire to form into something
well we are getting closer. still no cigar though.
Hmmm... That theory and the ones I posted before it are all the ones I've heard (besides the alien theory). What are the others?
well that would be the case if these early bacteria were like modern bacteria, however modern bacteria will be nothing like early bacterai since modern ones have had about 3 billion years to evolve
Do you have proof of this? that they were different?
you stab that strawman.
Think of it the way the theory is portrayed.... Maybe somewhere near the lines you believe, I know not.. If this little fish creature did exist, it would see no reason to come out of water. Just as a baby eagle sees no reason of leaving the nest, it's parent has to kick it out. The same reason you don't see more evidence of worms growing legs and crawling out of the ground, even today.
actually sex would evolve. the evolution of sex is actually quite simple, there are books on it.
Why would the early creatures see the need for sexual relations to reproduce life. When they were already sexless and coming along just fine...
you realise you are creating a strawman and burning it?
yet your theory of the Big Bang does not match up to the one widely held by NASA and others. Even the one taught in public schools today, or on TV, or anywhere. You'll have to explain your view to me a little more, or allot more :p
I think one of them is just off the coast of mexico, and it's huuuuuuuuuuuge.
But if a meteor just larger then a house would be estimated to destroy the world, then wouldn't such a rock create the same effect by landing in the water? And wouldn't that destroy, all, life?
is it? you do realise that there are several markings practically identical on ararat which all look like tha ark. it is a geological phenomenon.
Maybe you should go to Turkey? Because in 1660s I believe (so where around there) They went up and looked through it. It was a boat, and made of gopher wood too... Just as the Bible described it.
because the alps used to be underwater see, and then plate tectonics pushed the middle of the plate upwards. take a piece of paper, and draw a fish in the middle of it. put the piece of paper on a table, and now push the ends of the paper together. see how the fish goes up in the air? it is like that.
Show me a web-page, or a book, that would prove such a theory. Because I have never heard of that one....
All of your arguments were completely wrong and unscientific. none of them matched anything which scientists say happened. Your cosmology was wrong, your stellar mechanics was wrong, your abiogenesis was wrong, you evolution was wrong and your plate tectonics was wrong. and you said that Darwin though of the big bang. I really suggest you get an education, a basic one will do, in these things before you talk about them. we can educate you if you are willing to listen.
Maybe you should read through NASA's reports, study the physical universe and it's make up.... What I believe of Evolution I have gathered through MANY different sources.. And NASA believes the same of the Big Bang that I do..... Though I will tell you I may know a good deal about science, but it's in areas here and there. I know much more about Philosophy, Theology, Demonology, ect... Maybe we can discuss the conditions of morality and truth in relation to the creation of the world
I mean, Charles Darwin died decades before the Big Bang Theory even appeared.
Quite frankly, I'm skeptical if you've studied these topics for more than a week.
I assure you it was more then a week, though I wrote this whole debate for another person I few months ago. I was going into the grounds of what he believe of Evolution.... It was not on purpose that I put Darwin as the founder of the big Bang though...
Hey Phantom Llama,
YEC circles,
Is that a corny abbreviation for something. Or is a new organization I’ve never heard of before?
The big bang theory has nothing to do with evolution in any way, shape or form by any stretch of the imagination.
Maybe not to go so much into the theory of Evolution, but it does have more to do with it. It explains the creation of the universe, while writing of God. Any person that fully believes in evolution must write off God and deny that He is real.
Wrong. There was no collision because there was nothing to collide and no space or time for it to collide in.
Then how would it have started, if there was no time or space. No matter or anything, what exploded? By the way, NASA says you're wrong. Read the site I posted.
Nope. The energy of the big bang took advantage of this new fangled 'space' and condensed into particles, which the rest of the energy moved around. These interacted with each other in accordance with the laws of the universe, to create the simple basic blocks, such as hydrogen.
Would it not take the effort of an outside force to condense, such as gravity... Which didn't exist.
Stars were (and are) created when a cloud of hydrogen collapsed under its own gravity, creating enough pressure to cause the atoms to fuse, which is continuing to this day as that giant nuclear explosion we call the sun.
Again, you need gravity. In order to have gravity, you need some body that already was to create gravity...
Wha? Brought about by Charles Darwin? He had nothing to do with the 'Big Bang' theory, it wasn't even concieved of until after he died!
As i have stated before, it was my bad, I didn't mean to put him as the founder of both...
This is a misunderstanding of the Big Bang, but a forgivable one as it seems to be shared by almost everyone on the planet.
Including NASA and other organizations like it....
They did not float in space, as space did not exist. They did not float for billions of years, as time did not exist. They did not in fact float at all, as they did not exist either.
Then what would cause the explosion?
But since they did not exist your pount is invalid.
And since they did not exist the Big Bang is invalid, and so is NASA and a good deal of renowned scientists today.
This is based on a misunderstanding of the 'Big Bang'. It was not an explosion, it was an expansion of the primordial energy point.
What.....
How can it destroy hope for life on a thing which it created that doesn't exist yet?
If there was such an explosion. Then it would be so much as to alter any hope of life, as I said. Such an explosion never creates life, only destroys..
There is a lot of gravity at the core of a trillion tonne cloud of hydrogen. More than enough to cause nuclear fusion. We can cause nuclear fusion ourselves, it's called an H-bomb.
But there would be no such force..
This would be a good post, except for the fact that there was no space to emit off into. The early matter was very closely confined by the boundaries of the universe itself.
yet matter cannot be created or destroyed.. And how would the Big bang create space for everything to exist in?
This would seem to be the 'steady state' theory, which was falsified.
I wrote that section for the person I was debating with, who believed it..
But everything has not always been. Hence the big bang theory.
Then at one point there was nothing at all, period. Therefore it would be absurd to think anything could come about to create a Big Bang, to create a universe, which would create life.... You think to small
But the rest of what you say is based on chance, believe it or not.... And there are parts that don't make sense.. I would debate with you as well about morality and truth, but you would not be willing to listen.. The again, what's new???
dude, dude, please... before you post more pap about the big Bang, please have a look at the wikipedia link I posted.
Originally Posted by Lyle
Darwin didn't create the Big Bang Theory, though my whole writing of the Big bang theory was along the lines of focusing in on our solar system (Though I do know the difference between solar system and Universe: Though some scientists believe there are many universes, and we're in sort of a multiverse system.. Or so I have read.
that kinda stuff is all rather speculative, but no, the solar system isn't the universe. the solar system is a bunc of planets orbiting one star. there are missions of stars in our galaxy, and there are millions of galaxies in our cluster, and there are millions of clusters in the universe. pick up a basic astronomy book, it's all rather simple really.
Originally Posted by Lyle
You are calling me stupid and retard,
well you aren't very well educated, but we can't blame you for that, as I said, feel free to ask us questions.
Originally Posted by Lyle
in the sense that I don't mind; I've had Muslims call me "Satan" before. Yet you do not know me, nor have seen anything of me and still you judge, which puts you in an ignorant standpoint.
not really, we look at your science, see that it is totally wrong. is it fair to judge that you know very little science if what you say about the matter is wrong?
Originally Posted by Lyle
Hmmmmm, but wouldn't it then? If there was no flood, there is a good deal of the Bible that is false.
that's what some atheists would like you to thing Just because something is not literally truye does not make it symbolically or metaphorically false.
Originally Posted by Lyle
And if one part is wrong, wouldn't that make the rest in error as well? Besides that, why are there fish in the Swiss Alps?
dude, did you do the fish experiment yet?
take a piece of paper, and draw a bunch of fish all over it. now take the ends of the paper, and push em together. see how the middle (probably) but of the paper goes up in the air? that is just like plate tectonics that is. now see how those fish are on the top of that little paper mountain? that's how they got there! cool eh? now you can go and show your mates how fish get on mountains
__________________ MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
Any person that fully believes in evolution must write off God and deny that He is real.
Nope. This is a lie perpetuated by creationists to make it seem there is a conflict where there is none. You'll find a number of Christians who post in this forum accept the findings of mainstream science and it does not affect their faith one bit.
__________________ Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
Nope. This is a lie perpetuated by creationists to make it seem there is a conflict where there is none. You'll find a number of Christians who post in this forum accept the findings of mainstream science and it does not affect their faith one bit.
So, does that mean they're right? There are alot of people out there who have and teach false gospels and are accepted (Benny Hiin, and the whole TBN crew... There are more though), but they aren't right.... In fact, many of them are so wrong that it's gross..... Pete, what do you believe?
Last edited by Lyle; 28th November 2003 at 02:31 PM.
Reason: Typos...
Should have realized that most of you were non-Christians...
False, sounding like your looking down your nose lyle. There are plenty of Christians here.
Originally Posted by Lyle
If you want to bash me on the grounds of my Religion
Ughhh oh, Lyle you are making a very fundamental mistake. You are thinking of when the Bible says 'expect to face conflict when you speak the word of God'. You are making the mistake of thinking because you are facing resistance it is because you are speaking God's word and therefore you must be right. As we read from your posts, we know this is not the case. You are facing resistance because of your bad science data, NOT because of your belief in a Deity. I myself believe in a higher poewer, Lyle. So yo uare saying the University of Michigan's info on the Big Bang differs from what we have told you? I Graduated from Michigan Lyle with a Biology degree. They do not run a Creationist bad science platform at that school. It is one of the foremost Universities in the world. I will look at the article and see how it is different than what we have told you
__________________
None of the gods love wisdom or desire to become wise, for they are wise already -- nor if someone else is wise, do they love wisdom. Neither do the ignorant love wisdom or desire to become wise; for this is the grievous thing about ignorance, that those who are neither good nor beautiful nor sensible think they are good enough, and do not desire that which they do not think they are lacking.
).. LorentzHA and Arikay, I would love to debate with you to on whether or not God is real of the grounds on other grounds.... We'll see how it would go from there (There are other ways to prove creation other then science). 
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