ECF's -Which ones were right?

Anglian · #**371** 16th August 2008, 11:08 AM

Dear LLOJ,

That's very helpful.

In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin argues that the Christians have supplanted the Jews as the true Israel because they have inherited the divine promises (Isaiah 42:1-4 in the LXX) by a spiritual birth. When Trypho denies that the Christians are the children of God, Justin responds by citing Psalm 82:6 [Dialogue CXXIV].

He does not really develop this theme, but what Justin does is to provide a connection between this text and 1 John 3:1, and the Pauline kergymatic verses. (2 Corinthians 8:9; Philadelphians 2:6-8).

It is St. Irenaeus who first makes explicit the identification of ‘the gods’ with those who have been incorporated into Christ by baptism.

Irenaeus wrote on this theme out of a concern to combat those Gnostics who claimed that only a spiritual elite would attain incorruption. He argues that all Christians can attain this blessed state, by virtue of the Incarnation and through the sacraments of baptism and the Eucharist. We see in Against Heresies 38:4) the argument that human being advance in spiritual matters:

For we cast blame upon Him, because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods; although God has adopted this course out of His pure benevolence, that no one may impute to Him invidiousness or grudgingness. He declares, "I have said, Ye are gods; and ye are all sons of the Highest." But since we could not sustain the power of divinity, He adds, "But ye shall die like men," setting forth both truths-the kindness of His free gift, and our weakness, and also that we were possessed of power over ourselves. For after His great kindness He graciously conferred good [upon us], and made men like to Himself, [that is] in their own power; while at the same time by His prescience He knew the infirmity of human beings, and the consequences which would flow from it; but through [His] love and [His] power, He shall overcome the substance of created nature. For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God, having received the knowledge of good and evil.

He argues against the Velentinian teaching that there is a transcendent God separate from the God of the Old Testament (the so-called Demiurge): (AH 3.6.1)

1. Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool."22 Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord. And again, referring to the destruction of the Sodomites, the Scripture says, "Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven."23 For it here points out that the Son, who had also been talking with Abraham, had received power to judge the Sodomites for their wickedness. And this [text following] does declare the same truth: "Thy throne, O God; is for ever and ever; the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee."24 For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God-both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father. And again: "God stood in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods."25 He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. For she is the synagogue of God, which God-that is, the Son Himself-has gathered by Himself. Of whom He again speaks: "The God of gods, the Lord hath spoken, and hath called the earth."26 Who is meant by God? He of whom He has said, "God shall come openly, our God, and shall not keep silence; "27 that is, the Son, who came manifested to men who said, "I have openly appeared to those who seek Me not."28 But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, "I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High."29 To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the "adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father."30

Where Justin had seen man becoming gods through obedience to the law, Irenaeus is the first to link it to the baptismal implications and to the Pauline theme of becoming sons ‘by adoption’. (AH 3.19.1):

1. But again, those who assert that He was simply a mere man, begotten by Joseph, remaining in the bondage of the old disobedience, are in a state of death having been not as yet joined to the Word of God the Father, nor receiving liberty through the Son, as He does Himself declare: "If the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." But, being ignorant of Him who from the Virgin is Emmanuel, they are deprived of His gift, which is eternal life; and not receiving the incorruptible Word, they remain in mortal flesh, and are debtors to death, not obtaining the antidote of life. To whom the Word says, mentioning His own gift of grace: "I said, Ye are all the sons of the Highest, and gods; but ye shall die like men." He speaks undoubtedly these words to those who have not received the gift of adoption, but who despise the incarnation of the pure generation of the Word of God, defraud human nature of promotion into God, and prove themselves ungrateful to the Word of God, who became flesh for them. For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality. But how could we be joined to incorruptibility and immortality, unless, first, incorruptibility and immortality had become that which we also are, so that the corruptible might be swallowed up by incorruptibility, and the mortal by immortality, that might receive the adoption of sons?

Here we see Irenaeus moving towards the idea, which will become very influential, that the Son of God ‘became what we are in order to make us what he is himself.’ Or, as he puts it in the preface to AH 5:

following the only true and steadfast Teacher, the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.

The Incarnation is an essential prerequisite of out journey to God, for we need to be mingled with the Logos through the adoption of baptism in order to participate in immortality and incorruption (AH 3.19.1; 3.20.2). These attributes belong only to God, and we can participate in them only if God first unites Himself to the human race through the Incarnation of the logos. Individual humans can then be united with Christ through filial adoption. As a result of the Incarnation, Christians have access to a divine dignity which heretics fail to attain; the latter are gods and sons of the Most High but die like men.

The Incarnation, he taught, was a true union of God with man, if created with uncreated; without such an ontological basis the Soteriological purposes of the Incarnation could not have been made effective; it took place so that we could recover what was lost in Adam, and so that mankind’s growth to maturity could be completed. As in 1 Timothy 2:5, by being the ‘mediator between God and man’, Christ accommodates God to man and accustoms men to receiving God. (AH 3.18.7; 3.20.2; 4.28.2)

In accordance with the Pauline kergymatic teaching, our sonship by adoption, which is effected by baptism, endows us with one supreme property in particular – the Son’s immortality and incorruption. But there is nothing automatic about this, it depends on our moral behaviour and on our participation in the sacraments, which together attain the divine likeness, morality being linked with the freedom and the sacraments with the life of the divine likeness.

This process he describes is AH 4.20.5:

For God is powerful in all things, having been seen at that time indeed, prophetically through the Spirit, and seen, too, adoptively through the Son; and He shall also be seen paternally in the kingdom of heaven, the Spirit truly preparing man in the Son of God, and the Son leading him to the Father, while the Father, too, confers [upon him] incorruption for eternal life, which comes to every one from the fact of his seeing God. For as those who see the light are within the light, and partake of its brilliancy; even so, those who see God are in God, and receive of His splendour. But [His] splendour vivifies them; those, therefore, who see God, do receive life. And for this reason, He, [although] beyond comprehension, and boundless and invisible, rendered Himself visible, and comprehensible, and within the capacity of those who believe, that He might vivify those who receive and behold Him through faith. For as His greatness is past finding out, so also His goodness is beyond expression; by which having been seen, He bestows life upon those who see Him. It is not possible to live apart from life, and the means of life is found in fellowship with God; but fellowship with God is to know God, and to enjoy His goodness.

In this scale of progress people become gods at the stage of adoption, for this is when they attain the divine likeness and begin to participate in the freedom and immortality that belong to the Father and the Logos.

The union with the Spirit initiated by baptism is maintained by the Eucharist. Through being nourished with the body and blood of Our Lord the body does not go into corruption but partakes of Life. (AH 4.18.5).

We can see here why the reality of the Incarnation matters so much; if Christ had not really become human, there could be no baptism with its bestowing incorruption and immortality on us. We cannot carry the power of divinity - we are totally depend on Christ. We have no ontological affinity with God, so we have no escape from the corruption and illusions of the material world through the discovery of any divinity within us; we can 'become gods' only through our relationship with the Incarnate Christ.

We might note in passing that incorruption and immortality are not, in Justin and Irenaeus, postponed to the eschaton, but attained in principle as a result of our incorporation into Christ through baptism. But the personal element of our union with Christ is not developed; for that we have to turn to Clement of Alexandria.

Peace,

Anglian

LittleLambofJesus · #**372** 16th August 2008, 11:28 AM

Dear LLOJ,
That's very helpful.
In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin argues that the Christians have supplanted the Jews as the true Israel because they have inherited the divine promises (Isaiah 42:1-4 in the LXX) by a spiritual birth. .............

.........We might note in passing that incorruption and immortality are not, in Justin and Irenaeus, postponed to the eschaton, but attained in principle as a result of our incorporation into Christ through baptism. But the personal element of our union with Christ is not developed; for that we have to turn to Clement of Alexandria.
Peace,
Anglian

What do you mean by the "eschaton".
Did he have acces to the Book of Revelation by any chance which is showing the Final Consummation of both "israel/judah" and the Nations?
Zech 2:13 is an interesting verse as it shows YHWH not only being "roused" but also leaving His Holy habitation.
I can view this as perhaps the birth of JESUS thru the mary. I am just now working on this. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Zechariah 2:13 Be-hushed! All of flesh from faces of YHWH, that He is roused from habitation of holiness of Him.

Luke 3:6 And shall-be-seeing All flesh the Salvation of the God.'

Reve 19:17 And I perceived one messenger standing in the sun and he cries in voice, great, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in the mid heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered! into the Supper, the great, of the God. 18 That ye may be eating fleshes............"

Anglian · #**373** 16th August 2008, 12:20 PM

Dear LLOJ,

By the eschaton, I was meaning the final judgement, the end of all things. This is part of the Eastern emphasis on salvation as a process, and one which takes place in this world and the next.

The Zechariah reference I am most grateful for; I am not familiar enough with the ECFs reading of the OT to immediately spot if any of them picked it up; but it does, indeed, seem to be the sort of reference the ECFs would have picked up on. Your work on Revelation seems to be producing good fruit.

Peace,

Anglian

LittleLambofJesus · #**374** 16th August 2008, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Anglian

Dear LLOJ,

By the eschaton, I was meaning the final judgement, the end of all things. This is part of the Eastern emphasis on salvation as a process, and one which takes place in this world and the next.

The Zechariah reference I am most grateful for; I am not familiar enough with the ECFs reading of the OT to immediately spot if any of them picked it up; but it does, indeed, seem to be the sort of reference the ECFs would have picked up on. Your work on Revelation seems to be producing good fruit.

Peace,

Anglian

Greetings Anglian. I don't believe one has to go outside the Bible to interpret Revelation but from what I can see, accurate translation of that Book is an absolute must.

Did ya ever notie that big "Hush" in Reve 8?

http://christianforums.com/showthrea...0#post47445280

Zechariah 2:13 Be-hushed! All of flesh from faces of YHWH, that He is roused from habitation of holiness of Him.

Revelation 8:1 And when it opens the Seal, the Seventh, became a hush in the heaven as half-hour.

TexRec) Revelation 8:1 kai ote hnoixen thn sfragida thn ebdomhn egeneto sigh en tw ouranw wV hmiwrion

Philothei · #**375** 16th August 2008, 04:30 PM

LLOJ ... the eschaton is what we live in.. We will know either the time or place so why spend our time with geneologies? We cannot fully interpret the text anyhow....

LittleLambofJesus · #**376** 16th August 2008, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Philothei

LLOJ ... the eschaton is what we live in.. We will know either the time or place so why spend our time with geneologies? We cannot fully interpret the text anyhow....

Who is talking about geneologies?

Btw, when do you see the Parousia happening in Revelation? You might be interested in my thread on Matt 24 here. Peace

http://christianforums.com/showthrea...9#post48233439
Matthew 24:3 verse word study only

Anglian · #**377** 18th August 2008, 07:32 AM

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Instead of taking the approach which focuses on where the ECFs disagree and asking which of them was right, an attempt is being made here to show how, more typically, their writings, based upon the Church's understanding of Scripture, enlarge our own reading of the same - as well as helping form the doctrines through which the Church has tried to hold at arm's length heretical notions. Here, the theme being developed is that of theosis or divinisation.

The idea of human beings becoming gods entered Christian thought from Rabbinic Judaism. For Irenaeus, the sons of the Most High are those who have received the grace of adoption through baptism and the Eucharist, which means that Christ had to become really human. For both him and Justin becoming a ‘god’ is a way of expressing a realised and internalised eschatology. In Christ the created is united with the uncreated, and we in turn are related to the uncreated through Christ. The Incarnation is part of a larger economy that enables us to participate in the divine attributes of immortality and incorruption and attain the telos which had been intended for Adam.

According to Clement the Christian is deified by a heavenly teaching (Prot. 11.114.4) and when fully perfected after the likeness of his teacher, he ‘becomes a God while still moving about in the flesh’. (Strom. 7.101.4); and at the end of his life he is enthroned ‘with the other gods’ in the heavenly places.’

One problem raised, but not solved, by Clement, was how a transcendent God can be approached by humans in an intimate way. He saw his task as trying to determine how a human being could become sufficiently like a God who was beyond all human knowledge and virtue to enjoy a community of being with him.

In his Protrepticus (Exhortation to the Heathen – EH) he writes (1.8.4): about the Word ‘having become man in order that you too may learn from a man how it is even possible for man to become a god’. How do we learn? Through the Scriptures, by which God conforms us to his likeness ( EH 9.87). He sets out how this happens in the 6th book of his Stromateis. In the Scriptures we are taught truth by the Son of God, first through the prophecies, and then more clearly in the Gospels; but even there the truth is veiled, for the Lord always expresses the divine mysteries in parables. The Scriptures do not yield their meaning without an authoritative guide, and that guide is the Church’s rule of faith.

Interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Church's rule reveals the truth taught by Christ, which is divine knowledge, leading to prudence, or practical wisdom. Divine knowledge and practical wisdom are, for Clement, roughly equivalent: 'and are found in those being deified'. (Strom. 6.125.4). Without the Church's rule of Faith - the 'canon of truth' received from 'the truth itself' (Strom. 7.94.5) - the reader of Scripture will go astray; with it he will attain perfection. He offers this vivid analogy in Strom. 7.95.1-2):
[quote] As if, then, one were to become a beast instead of a man, like those who were changed by Circe's drugs [Odyssey 10. 235-247], so it is with him who has spurned the tradition of the Church and has suddenly taken up with the fancies of human sects; he has lost the character of a man of God, and of enduring trust in the Lord. But he who has returned from this deceit after hearing the Scriptures, and has turned his life to the truth, such a person becomes in the end as it were a god instead of a man.[/QUOTE]

Ironically, perhaps, for those who seem to imply some contradiction between the word of Scripture and the ECFs, even before there was anything like a canon, the Fathers put just as much importance on the actual words of God as any sola scriptura Christian; the one caveat is the one which the Orthodox Church holds to this day - that the Scriptures must be read within the rule of Faith of the Church.

We attain deification by imitating Christ as He appears in His Scriptures. In the Paedagogus (I.98.3), Clement writes that Christ came to transform 'earth-born man into holy and heavenly man'. In the Stromateis (2.125.4-5) he writes, in exegesis of Psalm 82:6:

'God stood in the congregation of gods; in their midst he judges gods' [Psalm 82:1]. Who are these gods? They are those who are superior to pleasure, who rise above the passions, who have a precise knowledge of everything that they do, who are gnostics, who transcend the world. Then comes: 'I said you are gods and all of you sons of the Most High' [Psalm 82:6]. To whom is the Lord speaking? To those who have detached themselves as far as possible form everything human.

The man who becomes a god is one who turns to truth after hearing the Scriptures, who becomes like Christ his teacher by imitating the perfection of the Word. He must be baptised and obedient to the teaching of the Church. But he must also strive for perfection both in contemplation of Christ, and in his ethical life. Through the mastery of his passions he will attain and interior unity and freedom from desire which resembles the unity and autonomy of God Himself.

But the problem with Clement's view is that it is hard to see how the ordinary Christian can attain this state. For that, we need to turn to that most brilliant of the early Fathers, Origen.

Peace,

Anglian

Anglian · #**378** 18th August 2008, 08:37 AM

Dear LLOJ,

This is one for you. I know how it frustrates you at times that those of us into the ECFs have so little to offer you on your favourite book, so I thought this, which I have come across in my study of St. Clement, might interest you.

Although salvation is one and is for all believers, there were, Clement believed, 'degrees of glory' (cf. 1 Cor. 15:41) in Heaven, for there were some chosen especially from among the chosen. In Stromateis 6.107.2, Clement singles out the 24 elders of Revelation 4:4 who are seated on thrones clad in white garments with golden crowns on their heads.

Peace,

Anglian

simonthezealot · #**379** 18th August 2008, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Zech 2:13 is an interesting verse as it shows YHWH not only being "roused" but also leaving His Holy habitation.
I can view this as perhaps the birth of JESUS thru the mary. I am just now working on this. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Zechariah 2:13 Be-hushed! All of flesh from faces of YHWH, that He is roused from habitation of holiness of Him.

Originally Posted by Anglian

The Zechariah reference I am most grateful for; I am not familiar enough with the ECFs reading of the OT to immediately spot if any of them picked it up; but it does, indeed, seem to be the sort of reference the ECFs would have picked up on. Your work on Revelation seems to be producing good fruit.

Peace,

Anglian

Does this help?
It appears JM referenced it in the trypho work.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0...3-13#highlight

and the devil stood at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said to the devil, The Lord who hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee. Behold, is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?’ "23832383 Zech. ii. 10–13, Zech. iii. 1, 2.

Anglian · #**380** 18th August 2008, 04:51 PM

Dear Simon,

Most useful, and very helpful; thank you very much.

Good to have you back with us here. I don't know whether the rather lengthy stuff I am posting on theosis is of any interest, but hopefully it illustrates the way in which we can see the ECFs take up an important theme from Scripture and illuminate our understanding of it.

I am struck, having reread 1 Clement over the past few days by two things which have a bearing on our long discussion here.

The first is that it was considered part of Holy Scripture by the compiler of the Codex Alexandrinus, and, along with 2 Clement appears in some of the lists prior to that of St. Athanasius; and how interesting that despite the Alexandrian connection, the latter knew they were not of Apostolic origin, and omitted them.

The second is the extent to which even at this very early stage, Scripture is used to support everything; and it is plain that the OT he uses is the LXX. Whilst, of course, he has no idea of an NT canon, we can see that Christians were already ascribing the same authority to the words of Christ and His Apostles. Chapters 13 and 46 are rich is quotations from Our Lord Himself, including one which only appears in the so-called Gospel of Thomas. He also quotes from Hebrews, Corinthians and Ephesians.

Again, thanks for the Justin reference.

Peace,

Anglian