One aspect of 12 step programs that is problematic for Christians, IMO

chaz345 · #1 30th July 2008, 12:40 PM

I realize that this is a somewhat minor point and I do not mean to attack or demean 12 step programs nor their participants but there is one thing that, at least from this outsider's view, seems to be a bit problematic.

For perspective I am one recovering from addictive behavior issues through a means other that a 12 step program.

My difficulty is that the whole "hello I'm ____ and I'm a _____" line of thinking, to me anyway, can cause people to take their identity from their addiction. For people who know who they are in Christ(which I suspect would be a very small number when we're talking about addicts) this probably isn't a problem, but for most I can see where it might be. I understand that the idea behind that thinking is to covey the idea that the issue is one which the person will always, to some degree struggle with or be tempted by, but I think one needs to be very careful to avoid taking their identity from their addiction. The addictive behavior is something they do, it is not who they are.

ww2pigeon · #2 30th July 2008, 08:15 PM

"I realize that this is a somewhat minor point and I do not mean to attack or demean 12 step programs nor their participants but there is one thing that, at least from this outsider's view, seems to be a bit problematic".

"For perspective I am one recovering from addictive behavior issues through a means other that a 12 step program".

"My difficulty is that the whole "hello I'm ____ and I'm a _____" line of thinking, to me anyway, can cause people to take their identity from their addiction. For people who know who they are in Christ(which I suspect would be a very small number when we're talking about addicts) this probably isn't a problem, but for most I can see where it might be. I understand that the idea behind that thinking is to covey the idea that the issue is one which the person will always, to some degree struggle with or be tempted by, but I think one needs to be very careful to avoid taking their identity from their addiction. The addictive behavior is something they do, it is not who they are".

I here what you are saying, but for me I never saw it that way. I saw it as I was confessing to myself and others, I had a problem

. I was admitting complete defeat.
I never wanted to be an alcoholic/addict. I never saw it as who I am, but I saw it for what it was, that I had lost all control and gave myself a way as a result of the addition.
I am sure their are those that feel that way, but I had a low bottom, I lost myself by the immoral acts I did.
The drink allowed me not to feel the sin or the guilt of the sin. I drank because I didn't want to know how I felt or how you felt. I drank because I didn't want to care.
That saying; I took the drink, and the drink took me.
A.A. is not the enemy here, it is our own EGO's that keeps us in ignorance.
I believe there are many ways to get sober. Mine happened to be A.A. for you or someone else it was something else. Think of all the people that are now free of their additions because of what you and I have shared through the grace of God. We are all merely messenger of God. Not one better than another but servents of God, trying on a daily bases to do Gods will, not mine. Thank you and may God Bless.

Matthew 9: 37
Then saith he unto his disciples. the harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Matthew 21: 1
And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

LoG · #3 11th August 2008, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by chaz345

My difficulty is that the whole "hello I'm ____ and I'm a _____" line of thinking, to me anyway, can cause people to take their identity from their addiction.

Going by the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous the identification is actually "Recovered" Alcoholic or Addict for those whom the obsession has been removed as a result of following the 12 Steps.
It is a witness for the purpose of identification of what God has saved me from, not what I am today.

themessagecarrier · #4 20th August 2008, 09:28 PM

The lay 12 step programs that can technically be called cults because they do not recognize Jesus as God, where never intended to be what they are today.
They used to say they were "Recovered Alcoholics", etc. So, they never had a problem of labeling themselves as addicts or alcoholics. Sure, if they never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and did not do the rest of the steps then of course they are "still" "alcoholics, etc. You see, without Jesus and the steps their is no recovery, only relapses and repeated failures. That is why you see people with 20 years going out or doing some sin that ruins their life. Because, unless you have done the first nine steps and are living in the last three, their is no recovery, There is no easier softer way!

BobW188 · #5 21st September 2008, 02:58 PM

I long ago accepted Jesus Christ and am a recovering alcoholic through the "lay" program of Alcoholics Anonymous.

I consider both my faith and the lessons I learned from those years of drinking and these years of recovery to be gifts from God. Whatever there is of good in me was refined in that fire. As to the drinking not being "who I was," I know many who've been there will join me in saying "I didn't drink; I was a drunk."

madison1101 · #6 21st September 2008, 04:56 PM

I have no problem with saying that I am an alcoholic. It conveys to the people in the room that I identify with them in their attempts to recovery from the disease of alcoholism. It is an equalizer, in that I am no better or worse than they are. I know that I am not my alcoholism. I also know that if I forget I have the disease of alcoholism, which I have done when I stray from my AA meetings, I will, and have, relapsed. Saying I am an alcoholic keeps me humble enough to keep seeking God's help to stay sober.

Do you have the same issue with people who have the disease of diabetes saying they are diabetics? What about people with schizophrenia saying they are schizophrenic? There are many diseases that people have and identify themselves as patients with that disease, or recovering from that disease. I am also recovering from bipolar disorder. I often say that I am bipolar, which communicates that I have the mental illness of bipolar disorder. I do not identify with my illness or my alcoholism. They are illnesses that I must deal with and work to maintain.

I hope this makes sense.

Trish

RichardB1980 · #7 3rd October 2008, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by themessagecarrier

Sure, if they never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and did not do the rest of the steps then of course they are "still" "alcoholics, etc. You see, without Jesus and the steps their is no recovery, only relapses and repeated failures.

I have to disagree. I was an alcoholic for a few years not too long ago. i never even went to a 12 step program nor did I accept Jesus and I am no longer a drinker today. As a matter of fact in my family history there is a long line of alcoholics whom of which had recovered, never went to a 12 step program nor accepted Jesus. We all did it under our own power and with no help at all. I also mention that no one ever relapsed either. I was the one with the shortest reign. I drank heavily for only 2yrs before I stopped. My grandfather had the longest at 28yrs.

devonian · #8 16th October 2008, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by RichardB1980

I have to disagree. I was an alcoholic for a few years not too long ago. i never even went to a 12 step program nor did I accept Jesus and I am no longer a drinker today. As a matter of fact in my family history there is a long line of alcoholics whom of which had recovered, never went to a 12 step program nor accepted Jesus. We all did it under our own power and with no help at all. I also mention that no one ever relapsed either. I was the one with the shortest reign. I drank heavily for only 2yrs before I stopped. My grandfather had the longest at 28yrs.

I'm glad to hear that you are no longer an alcoholic, but your description of leads me to wonder if you ever were an alcoholic. You seem to be describing a heavy drinker, a problem drinker, or possibly even a potential acloholic. These are all serious conditions in themselves, but alcoholism, according to AA, is not defined by the amount of alcohol or the number of years it is consumed, it is defined by the inability to stop once starting, and the complete lack of power to stop starting. If you had the power to stop starting, you would not be an alcoholic, according to the AA definition.

Of course, you may be using a different definition of alcoholism, but since this is a 12 step forum, I think it is reasonable to assume that the 12 step definition is used here.

To everyone else:
I also do not find the statement "Hello I'm ______, and I'm an ______", problematic for christians. In many ways its not much different than admitting that I am a sinner, and alcoholics do not hold a monopoly on sin. We could fill the blank with: "I'm ______and I am a sinner." and be consistent with the bible.

However, it can be problematic for a person who is not an alcoholic. They may overcome their problem drinking, and claim to have the power to overcome it without the need for God.

For others, who are alcoholics, this can also be problematic. They may give up and say I cant change. So, they won't try, even though they can recover, if they submit to God, and become willing to accept his help.

But the problem is not in the statement: "Hello I'm ______, and I'm an ______", it is in their lack of understanding that God can and will help the suffering alcoholic recover if they are willing to accept his help.

RichardB1980 · #9 16th October 2008, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by devonian

You seem to be describing a heavy drinker, a problem drinker, or possibly even a potential acloholic. These are all serious conditions in themselves, but alcoholism, according to AA, is not defined by the amount of alcohol or the number of years it is consumed, it is defined by the inability to stop once starting, and the complete lack of power to stop starting. If you had the power to stop starting, you would not be an alcoholic, according to the AA definition.

Of course, you may be using a different definition of alcoholism, but since this is a 12 step forum, I think it is reasonable to assume that the 12 step definition is used here.

I don't know what the AA definition is since I never attended meetings. I was told to attend meetings when I attacked a cop to get his gun so I could shoot myself but, I never did cause I moved out of state.

That is where my problem lies. I am still that way today. If you put beer/alcohol in front of me then I will not stop until I pass out or it is gone. The only way for me to not drink is to not go and buy it in the first place. I drive to and from work on roads that have no convenient stores or places that sell beer/liquor so I won't be tempted to go and get some. When I do want to drink, my roommate will go and buy it and she doesn't buy excessive amounts so, that does limit my drinking. Besides everyone I tell my story to says I was an alcoholic, even my former psychologist.

devonian · #10 16th October 2008, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by RichardB1980

I don't know what the AA definition is since I never attended meetings. I was told to attend meetings when I attacked a cop to get his gun so I could shoot myself but, I never did cause I moved out of state.

That is where my problem lies. I am still that way today. If you put beer/alcohol in front of me then I will not stop until I pass out or it is gone. The only way for me to not drink is to not go and buy it in the first place. I drive to and from work on roads that have no convenient stores or places that sell beer/liquor so I won't be tempted to go and get some. When I do want to drink, my roommate will go and buy it and she doesn't buy excessive amounts so, that does limit my drinking. Besides everyone I tell my story to says I was an alcoholic, even my former psychologist.

Thank you for clarifying. By your description, you seem to meet half the definition of an alcoholic. You lack the ability to stop once you start. The next part, the inability to stay stopped, takes a little time to determine. Try completely staying away from any mind altering substances for a year. If you are counting the days for the year to be over, this might be a sign that you can't stop starting either. If you decide you fit the second part also, I would be glad to help you find a solution.

By the way, please don't let any preconceived notion of "God" or "Jesus" keep you away from finding a solution, if you decide you need a solution. Most alcoholics initially find this part of the AA program difficult. As long as you don't close your mind to the possible existence of God, that is all that is needed to start. There is a lot more that would have to be done, but it is a good start.