| Apostolic Succession Churches A forum for members that attend a church with a claim to apostolic succession. |
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29th July 2008, 06:31 PM
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I am sure this has been talked about, but I did not find it. Admittedly, I did not look real hard. I am wondering what constitutes an Orthodox Church? I remember someone writing that it the name includes 'True' than it isn't. Who decides? Is it a matter of tracking back to the split, or before, and anyone claiming something else is out? And my final follow-up: How does ROCA fit into this?
Thanks for any clarification, Don |
30th July 2008, 12:37 AM
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30th July 2008, 01:10 PM
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Reps: 110,509,730,416,270,384 (power: 110,509,730,416,284) | | | Generally, if any "jurisdiction" is in communion with any of the Patriarchs, they are Orthodox. ROCA/ROCOR is now back in communion with the Moscow Patriarch.
Most schismatic groups have isolated themselves out of their certainty of their own "correctness" against every one else's, and end up as tiny little groups. It's sad. The Old Calendarist groups seem to either keep breaking into smaller and smaller groups, or coming back into the Church in small groups.
But then there are those groups who never have been Orthodox, but use the Orthodox name and take on some mixture of Orthodox/Catholic/Anglican/Pentecostal or whatever practices they like, hoping to draw in people looking for Apostolic Christianity. Those are the ones that usually like to show off their "apostolic succession" lists to prove their legitimacy.
Mary
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30th July 2008, 06:30 PM
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30th July 2008, 11:28 PM
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Reps: 13,587,832,172,079,916 (power: 13,587,832,172,086) | | Originally Posted by JasonV 
Yes, that's the various autocephalous Orthodox (what we non-Orthodox call "Eastern Orthodox"). As Don suspected the Russian case is more complicated than just the two represented on SCOBA. Yes, ROCOR is now back in communion with the others. As a result of the lifting of the Iron Curtain, however, some formerly underground "churches" have emerged, usually calling themselves merely "autonomous", not "autocephalous".
Also calling themselves "Orthodox" are what we would call "Oriental Orthodox". History calls them "Monophysites", but they only accept being called "Miaphysite". They have been regarded by the Eastern Orthodox as heretical ever since 451 A. D. They have recently drawn closer to the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and traditionalist Anglicans. (Some Global South Anglicans may come to recognize Pope Shenouda and not Pope Benedict XVI.) |
5th August 2008, 11:11 AM
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Dear Korah,
You write:
Also calling themselves "Orthodox" are what we would call "Oriental Orthodox". History calls them "Monophysites", but they only accept being called "Miaphysite". They have been regarded by the Eastern Orthodox as heretical ever since 451 A. D. They have recently drawn closer to the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, and traditionalist Anglicans. (Some Global South Anglicans may come to recognize Pope Shenouda and not Pope Benedict XVI.) I hope you will not mind if I say that only certain histories call us by a name we have always rejected.
The Oriental Orthodox Churches consist of the Coptic Church, the Armenian Church, the Eritrean, the Ethiopian, the Syriac and the Indian Orthodox Churches, amounting in all to about 80 million souls.
It is good that our various Churches are once more talking to each other, and let us hope and pray that these ancient differences will, in the Holy Spirit, be resolved, and that better relations will lead to a more united witness in the face of the twin enemies of Secularism and Islam.
There are some interesting documents on inter-Orthodox dialogue here: www.orthodoxunity.org.
Peace,
Anglian
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6th August 2008, 03:36 AM
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Reps: 13,587,832,172,079,916 (power: 13,587,832,172,086) | | Originally Posted by Anglian Dear Korah, You write: I hope you will not mind if I say that only certain histories call us by a name we have always rejected. The Oriental Orthodox Churches consist of the Coptic Church, the Armenian Church, the Eritrean, the Ethiopian, the Syriac and the Indian Orthodox Churches, amounting in all to about 80 million souls. It is good that our various Churches are once more talking to each other, and let us hope and pray that these ancient differences will, in the Holy Spirit, be resolved, and that better relations will lead to a more united witness in the face of the twin enemies of Secularism and Islam. There are some interesting documents on inter-Orthodox dialogue here: www.orthodoxunity.org. Peace, Anglian
I have no desire to upset you, Anglian,
But the fact is that all histories (all books period, far as I know) use the term "Monophysite" to describe the churches you list above. To which I would add that most of the tiny groups called "Western Orthodox" among European peoples have lines of authority going up to Pope Shenouda in Alexandria, plus the Global South portion of Anglicans are thinking of doing so.
Whenever I accede to your dictate to use the term "Miaphysite", I find I must add that they are commonly, if incorrectly, called "Monophysite". For good measure we should also say that the group commonly called "Nestorian" are not truly Nestorian, but are more precisely (but confusing the issue) best called something else. Many Western theologians consider the "Nestorian" Christology more tenable than either Miaphysitite or Chalcedonian Christianity. They hold that the Chalcedonian compromise is logically untenable, and anything truly labelled Monophysitism cannot be squared with the four gospels.  |
6th August 2008, 04:51 AM
| | let us love one another, for love is of God
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Reps: 277,563,643,894,892,704 (power: 277,563,643,894,905) | | Originally Posted by Korah I have no desire to upset you, Anglian,
But the fact is that all histories (all books period, far as I know) use the term "Monophysite" to describe the churches you list above. To which I would add that most of the tiny groups called "Western Orthodox" among European peoples have lines of authority going up to Pope Shenouda in Alexandria, plus the Global South portion of Anglicans are thinking of doing so.
Whenever I accede to your dictate to use the term "Miaphysite", I find I must add that they are commonly, if incorrectly, called "Monophysite". For good measure we should also say that the group commonly called "Nestorian" are not truly Nestorian, but are more precisely (but confusing the issue) best called something else. Many Western theologians consider the "Nestorian" Christology more tenable than either Miaphysitite or Chalcedonian Christianity. They hold that the Chalcedonian compromise is logically untenable, and anything truly labelled Monophysitism cannot be squared with the four gospels. Dear Korah,
No upset was caused
It is just that after so many centuries of seeing that term for a deadly heresy applied to us, we are programmed to respond by pointing out, gently I hope, that it is not true, and that dialogues with Rome and Constantinople have produced declarations which clear away this miasm.
I have noticed the similarities between some western theology and classic Nestorianism. The Church of the East, in which I have many friends, is certainly not Nestorian in its Christology. Any Christology which rejects the union, without mingling, of the wholly divine and the wholly human in one person of the Incarnate Word, runs counter to the Incarnational theology of St. Cyril, and thus to the soteriology of the Eastern Churches. As St. Gregory Nazianzus put it so many centuries ago: 'What is not assumed, cannot be healed.'
Peace,
Anglian
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30th September 2008, 12:09 PM
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Reps: 109,895 (power: 120) | | | well since we are all agreed that we are all one... how about we stop talking about our supposed differences and talk about how to tackle the double headed dragon of liberalism and Islam... a far more helpful conversation... peace tyo ALL christians...
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1st October 2008, 02:07 AM
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Reps: 2,116,580,735,399,451,392 (power: 2,116,580,735,399,480) | | Anglian It is good that our various Churches are once more talking to each other, and let us hope and pray that these ancient differences will, in the Holy Spirit, be resolved, and that better relations will lead to a more united witness in the face of the twin enemies of Secularism and Islam.
It would be great is the ancient and holy are talking, it would be great if the Churches were to reunite. It is amaing how long the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox have been apart when they seem to agree on so very much.
The only bad thing I can think of, is if the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church reunite, many protestants will freak out and say that we are Babylon lol
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