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Christian History The forum to discuss the history of the Christian church.

View Poll Results: Early ECFs better knew the Scriptures than those today do
Yes of course they did 58 65.17%
No of course they didn't 24 26.97%
Not really sure right now 7 7.87%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 22nd July 2008, 02:29 PM
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What the early Church truely understood was the need to be One, even through the disagreements and the heresy.

If I want to understand the Eucharist, I would much rather listen to Ignatius of Antioch than to listen to any of the Churches, today, because many fail to grasp the true meaning.

God Bless,
Yarddog
Ok thanks but this thread is not on the Eucharist. I didn't see yer vote btw.
__________________
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death, He may take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil


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  #12  
Old 22nd July 2008, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mont974x4 View Post
We all have the same Holy Spirit guiding us to the truth.
Yes, I agree. But does the Holy Spirit guide into the true meaning of each and every facet of the truth about scripture? Or does the Spirit allow us to the freedom to interpret them for ourselves, whether we get them right, wrong or somewhere in between.

Christians have a love for Christ, in varying degrees. We have faith, in different degrees.
Romans
Chapter 14
1
Welcome anyone who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions.
2
One person believes that one may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables.
3
The one who eats must not despise the one who abstains, and the one who abstains must not pass judgment on the one who eats; for God has welcomed him.
4
Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5
(For) one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6
Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7
None of us lives for oneself, and no one dies for oneself.
8
For if we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord; so then, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9
For this is why Christ died and came to life, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10
Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God;
11
for it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
12
So (then) each of us shall give an account of himself (to God).
13
Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather resolve never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
14
I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; still, it is unclean for someone who thinks it unclean.
15
If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died.
16
So do not let your good be reviled.
17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy Spirit;
18
whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by others.
19
Let us then pursue what leads to peace and to building up one another.
20
For the sake of food, do not destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to become a stumbling block by eating;
21
it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
22
Keep the faith (that) you have to yourself in the presence of God; blessed is the one who does not condemn himself for what he approves.
23
But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because this is not from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

God Bless,
Yarddog
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  #13  
Old 22nd July 2008, 02:44 PM
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Christians have a love for Christ, in varying degrees. We have faith, in different degrees.
Romans
I like Romans also

Romans 11:16 For if the first-fruit holy and the kneading, and if the root/riza <4491> holy and the boughs,
17 if yet any of the boughs are broken off, thou yet a field-olive being in-pierced/grafted in them, and together-communioner of the root of the fatness of the olive you became,
18 no thou be according-boasting of the boughs. If yet thou according-boasting, not thou the root are bearing, but the root thee.

Reve 5:5 And one out of the elders is saying to me: "No you be lamenting! Behold! He conquers, the Lion,the out of the Tribe of Judah,the root/riza <4491>of David, to up-open the scrollet and loose the seven seals of it".
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Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death, He may take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil


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  #14  
Old 22nd July 2008, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus View Post
Ok thanks but this thread is not on the Eucharist.
Don't you recognize an example? The Eucharist is one of the items where there is disagreement between the Churches. Many of the Protestant Churches don't understand.

Ignatius wrote about the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist and I am certain that he understood the teachings of the Apostles far better than people of today. (This is not make this discussion side track onto the Eucharist.)

I didn't see yer vote btw.
If there is not one that fully expressed my opinion, I'd be glad to vote.

Yarddog
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  #15  
Old 22nd July 2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Yarddog View Post
Yes, I agree. But does the Holy Spirit guide into the true meaning of each and every facet of the truth about scripture? Or does the Spirit allow us to the freedom to interpret them for ourselves, whether we get them right, wrong or somewhere in between.

Christians have a love for Christ, in varying degrees. We have faith, in different degrees.


God Bless,
Yarddog

We are each individuals, we grow at different rates and in different areas.

We are still human and we will make mistakes but we are promised the Holy Spirit to lead us into the fullness of truth.

NASB
Joh 14:26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.


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Oh, that I would fear God more than I fear man.

All sorts of surprises can occur when the preacher takes the Bible seriously. Leander keck in The Bible in the Pulpit

TEST ALL THINGS AGAINST SCRIPTURE.


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  #16  
Old 22nd July 2008, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Ok thanks but this thread is not on the Eucharist.
Don't you recognize an example? The Eucharist is one of the items where there is disagreement between the Churches. Many of the Protestant Churches don't understand.
Again, the Eucharist is something the Orthodox and Catholics will have to wrangle out as that is not my interest in this thread.
This thread concerns the ECFs and the Scriptures and that includes both the OC and NC ones. Thanks.
__________________
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death, He may take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil


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  #17  
Old 22nd July 2008, 03:12 PM
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Kiss

Dear LLOJ,

Good to be on the same thread with you again.

An interesting question. You know my view, which is that one of the criteria the early Church used in deciding which books were and were not Scripture was whether they were cited by the Fathers; so in one sense, no, they couldn't have know the Scriptures as well as us, because it was only through their work in the Spirit that the Church came to recognise, again, in the Spirit, what was and was not the word of God - and many of the Fathers did not have access to the full range of what we now regard as Scripture.

But, of course, Scripture was not how the word of Christ was originally spread; that was through the preaching of the Apostles, and a man like Polycarp who had known St. John, and who passed his oral and written teaching to his pupil Irenaeus, would have had, and have passed on, insights that become an important part of how we understand the Scripture. Just imagine (and here's one just for you) being the pupil of a man who had been a disciple of St. John himself; heck, some of your questions on Revelation () might have been answered.

Did they know Scripture better? That depends what you mean. They knew the oral teaching of the Apostles and had the originals of the various epistles and the comments of those who had received them; so although many of them did not have the full text we now have, they breathed the very air of the Apostles and inherited many of those things St. John tells us were not written down. So I suspect they understood the Good News quite as fully as anyone with an interlinear English-Greek Bible does - and possibly had imbibed the spirit of the Good News a good deal more.

One thing for sure, reading these disciples of the disciples of the Apostles is a wonderful insight into how the Faith was before there were scriptural texts to argue over.

And, as one moves away from the sub-Apostolic times, it is through the writings of those such as St. Athanasius that we get the canon of Scripture we have today; it is through the writings of the great Cappadocians, St. Basil, St. Gregory Nazianzus and St. Gregory of Nyssa, that we owe our understanding of the Trinity; and through the great St. Cyril of Alexandria that we understand the natures of Christ. But my own personal favourites are St. Cyril of Jerusalem, whose writings show us how the early Christians were taught (and can be used today, with profit), and then one who is included in the list of my own Fathers, St. Isaac of Nineveh, whose writings illuminate the workings of the Spirit through a knowledge of Scripture and an indwelling of the Spirit that inspire, instruct and edify in equal measure.

The Holy Scriptures are the word of God. The Church Fathers helped establishthe canon of that word, and the illumination they offer into it is a source of comfort and joy to me, and I am envious of those who have yet to encounter the pleasure of the first encounter with them.

Bet you're sorry you asked now

Peace,

Anglian
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  #18  
Old 22nd July 2008, 03:26 PM
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Confusing question... better than those WHAT today?

But, I'll bite. i answered yes.

Of course they did, that's why they are Church Fathers!
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  #19  
Old 22nd July 2008, 03:33 PM
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*snip*,,,,The Holy Scriptures are the word of God. The Church Fathers helped establishthe canon of that word, and the illumination they offer into it is a source of comfort and joy to me, and I am envious of those who have yet to encounter the pleasure of the first encounter with them.

Bet you're sorry you asked now

Peace,

Anglian
Greetings Anglian. Always good to hear from you and as always your posts are well thought out and enlightening.
I still remain SOLO SCRIPTURA of course but one of these days I may actually get around to reading the ECFs but right now, I am delving more into the Hebrew/Greek of the Bible.

I forgot I had this study awhile back concerning the 2 different greek words for "jerusalem", one of them being a combination of 2 greek words meaning "priest" and "peace" which are the words used in Hebrew 7:1 concerning Melchizedek of which not much is heard about him.
Again, thks for your contribution.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm

Hierosoluma (Strong's 2414) occurs 59 times in 59 verses:
ierosoluma <2414>,

Hierousalem (Strong's 2419) occurs 83 times in 80 verses:
ierou-salhm <2419> #2411 #4532 ["Priest of Peace"]

Genesis 14:18 And Malkiy-Tsedeq king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of El-Elyon

Hebrews 7:1 For this the Melchisedek, King of Salem/salhm <4532>, Priest/iereuV of the God of the Most High/uyistou <5310>, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him
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Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death, He may take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil


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  #20  
Old 22nd July 2008, 03:34 PM
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Again, I just want to reiterate so that you don't think I was offering a clever quip: The question is regaring ECFs, not Early Christians in general. With that said, to me it goes without saying that they understood the scriptures better than those today (although I am still unclear WHO exactly are "those"). As the Eunich said, how am I to understand if there is no one to interpret it for me. The ECFs were among those called by the Holy Spirit through the Church to bear witness to the faith and yes, without a doubt they understood the writings of the Apostles better than we could. The only reason we understand them as well is because we have inherited their understanding. To expand on this point, I direct anyone back to Anglian's more nuanced and poignant post above.

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