Uhoh, a fundamentalist coming to post in a D&D thread! Run!
No just joking. I'm actually a huge D&D fan, and have been from the time that I was in college. Even since I was saved, I haven't had very much problem with the game, mostly because of my outlook on it.
The biggest problem with D&D, just like with any minority interest, is the stereotype that is given to the majority of people who participate in it because of a minority of individuals. D&D players get the stereotype of being nerds who still live at home, have no life, a small circle of friends, are extremely annoying rules-lawyers, and generally are extremely overweight. In alot of fundamentalist Christian circles, they are also viewed as devil-worshipping, sorcerer wannabes, who have no concept of spirituality. This is largely from lack of knowledge about the game itself, and just looking at the surface of what it is. As has been said in example before, my group is by far and away not part of this stereotype. Yeah, some of us are overweight (like myself), we're generally all still single (unmarried that is....most of us are dating), and one of us still lives at home, but its for cost of living reasons. All of us have good, 40 hour a week jobs, mostly in the fields we went to school for. We usually only meet once a month or so actually because of our conflicting work schedules. Rules-lawyers (and we've had a few) tend to get smited and backstabbed because they tick people off so badly.
In my opinion, D&D like most roleplaying games is a core set of rules that you can use to basically create an infinite series of worlds for you characters to play in. I have played in worlds that had little to no arcane magic, and a strictly monotheistic divine realm to the standard polytheistic ones that you see in the games. I have played in ones that were strictly dungeon crawls, with one encounter after another, and I've played in ones that were great runs of character development and story. It is all was the GM wants to make it. Yes, theres alot of premade worlds out there, but the player is not obligated to run in one of those worlds.
On top of that, a player is not forced to play a character that he disagrees with for some reason. I for example, generally play a neutral good, or chaotic good character, as this represents my own personality (close enough anyway). However, if I am playing in a polytheistic world, I will not play a cleric or a paladin. My personal convictions are that to pay homage to a god (even by proxy or in a game) aside from Jehovah is a violation of the first commandment. Does that mean that I think that it is a sin for all Christians? No, but for me it would be (James 4:17). Every person's walk is different, so I cannot and will not dictate to others. I have no problems running a character that uses arcane magic...I'm not casting spells.
With that said, D&D has the potential of being everything that its critics accuse it of being. Not for every player obviously, but it has to be said that there are alot of folks who literally cannot seperate reality from the game. For them, everything that happens in the game world affects the real world. This holds true (and I have seen it) in D&D, WoW, Diablo II, Warhammer 40K, various other tabletop games, and numerous video games. Games consume their life, and I've even seen instances where the "gods" from the games have been adopted as deities by the individual. Its really scary when this happens, but it is definitely in the minority of gamers. As with anything, you have to examine yourself, your motives, and where you time allotment is going. If the game is starting to get preference over your other priorities (God, family, work, etc.) its time to cut back or eliminate it. If its all you talk about, its time to cut back or eliminate it.
On topic, the problem with the games is that they tend to attract people with an anti-Christian bent due to the adult nature of the vast majority of the stories that feed the games. Conan, John Carter Warlord of Mars, etc, so on. Dungeons and Dragons was never meant to be a kids game, was invented by college students for college students, and always had adult themes. The hobby has suffered mercilessly at the hands of anti-Christian business models and a handful of folks who demonize all things fun, if you think about it, for supposedly Christian reasons. These factors have aggravated the situation, but I think the core of it is more a function of the customer base.
I think the original Christian community resistance to it has helped steer the hobby in many of its facets continually toward the less than palatable themes, but ultimately it is a function of the fact that there is a narrow band of people, males between the ages of about 10-25, who habitually play these games. While compared to many hobbies they're not too terribly expensive, they are nevertheless an utter black hole for productivity, devouring as much spare time as you care to devote to them. This makes them less and less attractive after one has a family for all but the truly devoted.
Btw, the time sink aspect is just as true of online roleplaying, maybe even worse for it, because it isn't limited to the times you can get a real life group together.
In short, (sorry if this rambled a lot), I believe the games tend to embody less than Christian ideals because they are marketed to a demographic as a fantasy escape allowing them to do things (often illicit things) they could not get away with in life. It's just the nature of the hobby.
There are a growing number of women in the hobby, which may help change the trend towards sex and violence. There are also a number of fantasy and sci fi rpg's or semi-rpg's (Warhammer, which is more like a simulation, but is unrealistic and features powerful characters that people often role play to a certain extent) that encourage craft and painting skills, which draw from a pool of people less intrinsically prone to anti-Christian values, but let's face it... Boys will be boys, and if you combine that with a hobby inspired much more by pulp fiction than the classics like Arhtur or The Lord of the Rings, you're going to get something like what the hobby looks like these days, demons and tiny metal models with breasts and all.
Good points about the demographics of it all. Yes, it was invented by college students for college students. But many women play it now (), and so do older men. The hobby started during the 70's, and once you start, you don't stop playing it at least occasionally, so long as you can get a group together.
So now there are people who were college students during the 70's who still play... some of them are now in their 60's! I started playing around 1979, and I was 25 then. I'm not active in it now, but I would still play if I knew of a good game I could fit into my schedule.
Btw, in my experience, having more women in the hobby will not curb the sex and violence, or the adult themes found in some campaigns. Women enjoy those things just as much as the men do. But they do tend to focus more on roleplaying and storytelling than on pure hack 'n' slash.
If someone or a group of someone's were to market a system and gaming "world" more palatable to Christians, I believe it would go a long way towards making Christians in general less apprehensive about it. Nevertheless, in my experience, participating in the hobby will indeed introduce one to occult practices, even if only by introducing you to people who believe in such things rather than the game itself having anything realistic about the occult. The crowds playing in all the gaming stores I am familiar with are decidedly anti-Christian. If you find yourself unable to resist the call, just be careful out there. The negative points Christians make about the hobby are not entirely without cause.
I know, realistic occult... oxymoron. Anyhow....
That's my take, and one of my worst written posts ever, but I'm back after a long hiatus so nyaa!
Probably true that gaming store crowds tend to be anti-Christian, with a high percentage of pagans and vociferous atheists, but most people play at home. The game is really what the gamemaster and players make of it.
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. No guilt of life, no fear of death This is the power of Christ in me
From life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
‘Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand
Last edited by Izdaari; 24th February 2009 at 01:19 PM.
Reason: fixed a typo
On top of that, a player is not forced to play a character that he disagrees with for some reason. I for example, generally play a neutral good, or chaotic good character, as this represents my own personality (close enough anyway). However, if I am playing in a polytheistic world, I will not play a cleric or a paladin. My personal convictions are that to pay homage to a god (even by proxy or in a game) aside from Jehovah is a violation of the first commandment. Does that mean that I think that it is a sin for all Christians? No, but for me it would be (James 4:17). Every person's walk is different, so I cannot and will not dictate to others. I have no problems running a character that uses arcane magic...I'm not casting spells.
Just so. One should play according to one's convictions. For me, I would have no problem being an actor on stage or screen who portrays a character who worships an imaginary god. The character is not me, and the god in question really is imaginary. I take the same attitude in game - the character is not me doing something I couldn't get away with in real life, but a fictional creation of mine.
OTOH, my own personality is Chaotic Good (random kindness and senseless acts of beauty ), and so it's a challenge for me to roleplay a character who's very lawful or very evil. I would and I have, it just takes more acting skill. I've also played very non-human aliens in sci-fi campaigns. Now that's hard!
With that said, D&D has the potential of being everything that its critics accuse it of being. Not for every player obviously, but it has to be said that there are alot of folks who literally cannot seperate reality from the game. For them, everything that happens in the game world affects the real world. This holds true (and I have seen it) in D&D, WoW, Diablo II, Warhammer 40K, various other tabletop games, and numerous video games. Games consume their life, and I've even seen instances where the "gods" from the games have been adopted as deities by the individual. Its really scary when this happens, but it is definitely in the minority of gamers. As with anything, you have to examine yourself, your motives, and where you time allotment is going. If the game is starting to get preference over your other priorities (God, family, work, etc.) its time to cut back or eliminate it. If its all you talk about, its time to cut back or eliminate it.
Enjoy your gaming!
l've been in the hobby since 1979, and I have never, not even once, seen an individual in it who had much trouble distinguishing between the game world and reality. That might be because in my groups anyone who showed that trait wasn't invited back... but still, in my experience it's extremely rare, and only found in those who were of dubious mental health to begin with.
I have, however, seen people who became obsessed with the hobby and spent all their time on it. That seems to be much more common with online roleplaying than with tabletop roleplaying.
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. No guilt of life, no fear of death This is the power of Christ in me
From life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
‘Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand
Last edited by Izdaari; 24th February 2009 at 01:23 PM.
Reason: corrected spelling
OTOH, my own personality is Chaotic Good (random kindness and senseless acts of beauty ), and so it's a challenge for me to roleplay a character who's very lawful or very evil. I would and I have, it just takes more acting skill. I've also played very non-human aliens in sci-fi campaigns. Now that's hard!
Yeah, I can definitely agree with you on that. I've played a true neutral monk once. Man, that was one of the hardest things I've ever done. I don't think I could ever bring myself to run a truly evil character. I just don't think I'd be able to operate that far outside my normal mindset. And honestly, I don't think I'd feel comfortable doing it. I've played non-humans a few times before with not alot of difficulties, but not as bad for me as playing out of alignment.
Originally Posted by Izdarri
l've been in the hobby since 1979, and I have never, not even once, seen an individual in it who had much trouble distinguishing between the game world and reality. That might be because in my groups anyone who showed that trait wasn't invited back... but still, in my experience it's extremely rare, and only found in those who were of dubious mental health to begin with.
I have, however, seen people who became obsessed with the hobby and spent all their time on it. That seems to be much more common with online roleplaying that with tabletop roleplaying.
If I'm going to be honest, where I've seen most of those folks have been in the gamestore crowd. I used to go there mostly because they generally had good tables and places to set up and play games. If you've never played Warhammer 40k, let me tell you, you need a huge table to play that game right. It's not something you can easily play on a kitchen table. But I've seen numerous people that really have lost their grip on reality. And you can usually pick them out too....they're the real loners. I've never had anyone directly in my gaming group with that problem, largely because we're all fairly levelheaded guys.
Yeah, I can definitely agree with you on that. I've played a true neutral monk once. Man, that was one of the hardest things I've ever done. I don't think I could ever bring myself to run a truly evil character. I just don't think I'd be able to operate that far outside my normal mindset. And honestly, I don't think I'd feel comfortable doing it. I've played non-humans a few times before with not alot of difficulties, but not as bad for me as playing out of alignment.
In one SF game, I played a methane breather from a gas giant. Hardest RP I've ever done! Luckily it was just one game session. Trying to do that for a whole campaign would've been hard work, not fun.
Some people also have a lot of trouble RP'ing the opposite gender. That's never been a problem for me. As I see it, a woman and a man think more alike than people of different alignments, religions, political ideologies or nationalities. And the variation between individuals gives you a lot of wiggle room.
If I'm going to be honest, where I've seen most of those folks have been in the gamestore crowd. I used to go there mostly because they generally had good tables and places to set up and play games. If you've never played Warhammer 40k, let me tell you, you need a huge table to play that game right. It's not something you can easily play on a kitchen table. But I've seen numerous people that really have lost their grip on reality. And you can usually pick them out too....they're the real loners. I've never had anyone directly in my gaming group with that problem, largely because we're all fairly levelheaded guys.
Can't say I've ever played Warhammer 40k, but I have played Battletech at a con. Same thing, miniature wargame, huge table needed.
I've never played at a game store, but I've been at a couple when a game was going on. Some pretty strange people to be sure. I just shook my head and wandered back out.
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. No guilt of life, no fear of death This is the power of Christ in me
From life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
‘Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand
8 x 4 foot table is ideal for GW wargames like Warhammer Fantasy Battle and W 40K. We used a pool table covered with a piece of MDF to protect it.
I'm not going to try to rate my normality vs other gamers, it's kind of pointless - we typically use ourselves as our baseline for what 'normal' is, and that's too objective. I've had similar discussions about Christianity, charismatic vs. other 'flavors' etc.
__________________ Mornie utúlië (darkness has come)
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8 x 4 foot table is ideal for GW wargames like Warhammer Fantasy Battle and W 40K. We used a pool table covered with a piece of MDF to protect it.
Yup, thats about right. But not too many of my friends had a pool table at their house that we could play on. We ended up making our own battle board out of a sheet of good plywood eventually, and terrain from insulation sheet foam, but we still played at the gamestore more than half the time. They had better terrain that we made for one, and it was way convenient to buy our supplies there. Alot of time we would make tweaks to our army lists and stuff, so being able to buy the parts or models that we needed was good.
As far as rating other's "normality", thats usually impossible, I would agree. I was referring to those that have totally lost their grip. Its usually fairly obvious when it happens. The game takes over their whole existence, or they literally can't distinguish the game from life. The vast majority of gamers are not like this. But there are a few extreme cases who are.
While compared to many hobbies they're not too terribly expensive, they are nevertheless an utter black hole for productivity, devouring as much spare time as you care to devote to them. This makes them less and less attractive after one has a family for all but the truly devoted.
Both of my parents have played D&D since they were in college, and the entire time I was growing up it was common for 'the group' to come over on average twice a week or so to play D&D. Yes, this took up a large amount of time, but it never detracted from my family's family time or anything like that. In fact, because of growing up this way, with 'the group' coming over very regularly, I grew to have an extended family. I call all of these people my Uncles or Aunts, and I know that I can trust them to help me whenever I have a problem. I'm closer to them than I am to some people than I am in my biological family. In reality, I feel like D&D has actually helped my family pull together and stay close.
As for people getting obsessed with the game, well... I've never seen someone so far lost that they can't distinguish reality from fantasy. I've seen one person who I would say was truly obsessed with D&D, but he wasn't used to pen and pager D&D, he was used to playing computer games online and, sadly, fit the stereotype of a most gamers. Other than that, I've never seen any reason to worry about D&D because I've never seen people lose their ability to distinguish reality from fantasy, and I've never seen D&D lead people to occultic practices or anything in that vein.
We have several strong Christians in our group (myself and my family included). The important thing for us to remember is that it is just a game.
On the whole 4.0 edition versus 3.5...
There are some that say the newest edition limits roleplaying, while I can see how the game is definitely more board game in nature, this is just silly, because good rp'ing comes from the people around the table, not a system of rules.
Is it better that 3.5 edition? Maybe. They streamlined a lot of rules. You should have less book flipping around the table once you've constructed your characters.
I would say that the newest edition limits roleplaying, because of the way it's set up. From what I've seen (I haven't played much in 4.0, I've mainly played 3.5) I feel that the daily/encounter/at-will powers are interesting, but they limit what you're able to do. Personally, I like the regular attacks in 3.5 when you tell the DM what you're doing and the DM decides the effects if you're trying to do anything special or different. I don't feel that I get that as much in 4.0, although that could be because we have different DMs for the 3.5 game and the 4.0 game, and the DM for the 4.0 game tends to go more by the rules and is more focused on the actual fights.
D&D can be whatever you make of it. If you choose to make it an obsession, than it can become an obsession. But if you choose to just have fun with it, then it will just be for fun. It can be all hack-and-slash, with tons of fights and little characterization or plot, or it can be all plot and storyline with very few fights and a lot of diplomacy. It can be anywhere in-between.
), and so do older men. The hobby started during the 70's, and once you start, you don't stop playing it at least occasionally, so long as you can get a group together. 
), and so it's a challenge for me to roleplay a character who's very lawful or very evil. I would and I have, it just takes more acting skill. I've also played very non-human aliens in sci-fi campaigns. Now that's hard! 
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