Anglicans - Protestant or Catholic?

luckyfredsdad · #61 7th November 2009, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Basil the Great

I guess the last post kind of says it all. Anglicans are Protestants. I might add for those of you who do not now, that the original name of the Episcopal Church was the "Protestant Episcopal Church".

Rubbish! The Coronation oath was a political work from a Protestant parliament who were too busy supporting a Lutheran Claimant to the Throne of England to be doing anything else.[1714]

Regarding the term protestant. The Anglican Church in Britain, has never used the word in a religious sense, it was used to describe Anglican opposition to the popes efforts to intrude a foreign monarch in to England! [1571. I suppose that it is the political outlook that reflects the use by our American colleagues. ].

Further, regarding the, Ecumenical Councils, in 1536/7 - 42 and in the beginning of Elizabeth's reign the Convocation and Parliament passed Bills confirming the Churches belief in the First Four Councils and such others as necessary,[ rough trans.] In 1572, the English Convocation passed a bill that nothing should be taught but what was in accord with the teachings of the ancient bishops and fathers. To me and others this meant seven councils!.

The Councils are part and parcel of a belief that the early church had and we still profess today that the magisterium of the Church is held in the College of Bishops and exercised through the Ecumenical Councils. Not in one man!

luckyfredsdad · #62 7th November 2009, 12:39 PM

Regarding Catholic belief and Scripture within the Church in England!
I have always been taught that the Church in England believes in the Revelation of Christ to the Saints, [Jude3} Scripture and the Seven Ecumenical Councils. As Anglicans we believe that the Scriptures are completed, explained and interpreted by the Seven Councils and the Fathers of the early Centuries.
The belief in Scripture and the Councils is illustrated by Anglican belief stretching from the Canon Of S.Vincent of lerins, [5th, Cent], the early Synod at Hatfield[?] and right up to and through the Reformation. As someone else said, 'an unbroken chain'. Regarding the infallibility of the Church, the Anglican Fathers of the Reformation certainly believed the whole church couldn;t err! When it talked about Councils erring you have to see that they were talking about the Roman Catholic founding conference at Trent! They believed that an Ecumenical Council couldn't err, but it only became ecumenical after the event.i.e, after it had been accepted by the Church.

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KarinP · #63 9th November 2009, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Catherineanne

What do you mean no-one agrees?

Protestant churches are those which were born out of protests against the excesses and abuses of the Roman Catholic Church. As such, Anglicanism is most certainly Protestant. Ironically enough, so is today's Roman Catholic Church, although dear Benedict is trying his hardest to reverse this modernism.

However, as an apostolic church, and with an unbroken succession from Peter, alongside both Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, the Anglican communion is also Catholic, by which is denoted 'Universal'.

Any Christian of any denomination is welcome to commune in any Anglican church. Anglicans may not communicate in either a Roman or Orthodox church. Which means that Anglicanism is in fact the most Catholic of the apostolic churches, and is incidentally the reason why I could never be any other denomination; all are welcome at the Feast of the Lamb, and all Christians are welcome to commune in my church, if they choose to do so.

An interesting thought, Catherineanne, but can I suggest you conform to the usage of 'Catholic' when talking of the church with it's HQ in Rome and 'catholic' when referring to the universality of the Church of England. This may help to avoid further confusion.

One of the creeds used by members of the CofE/Anglican Church does refer to the 'Holy catholic church' but this is not the same thing as the holy Catholic Church. Little things can make such a difference.

The Church of England is said to be a very broad church and Anglicanism is established in many parts of the world, so it is certainly catholic, but not all Anglicans see themselves as Catholic.

luckyfredsdad · #64 9th November 2009, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by SirTimothy

Somewhat confused as to where you got this from. No official documents from the past 400+ years have said this...

Sir, in 1536-7'/46 and again in Eliza's reign, both the English Church and state passed Canons affirming that the Church held to the First Four Councils and as many other as to the same. Meaning, according to commentators, that we believed that the first four were Christological, two were explanatory and the last, was, as Field and Laud put it , a matter of manners. In 1572, Convocation again affirmed its beliefs by stating nothing should be taught or accepted but was agreed and taught by the early Fathers. (Rough Trans. 39 Articles .Kidd.pg 13.]

luckyfredsdad · #65 9th November 2009, 10:29 AM

Karin P.
When I was a child, we had an Irish friend who said, "There are Irish men and those men who live in Ireland." It is the same with Anglicanism. To be an Anglican, in my estimation, you have to believe in the teaching of the traditional faith. Revelation, Scripture and Councils. Otherwise the name for them is NEO ANGLICANS.

Timothy · #66 9th November 2009, 10:49 AM

When I was a child, we had an Irish friend who said, "There are Irish men and those men who live in Ireland." It is the same with Anglicanism. To be an Anglican, in my estimation, you have to believe in the teaching of the traditional faith. Revelation, Scripture and Councils. Otherwise the name for them is NEO ANGLICANS.

Funny that. We've been around far longer than you have. You see your branch of Anglicanism started with the Oxford Movement, the Protestant branch started in the 1500s... which of them do you think is the 'neo anglican' movement?

boswd · #67 9th November 2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by SirTimothy

Funny that. We've been around far longer than you have. You see your branch of Anglicanism started with the Oxford Movement, the Protestant branch started in the 1500s... which of them do you think is the 'neo anglican' movement?

Out of curiosity before the reformation did the Church of England resemble more of the Oxford movement Church or of the Church that came from the Reformation?

thanks

Timothy · #68 9th November 2009, 11:50 AM

Out of curiosity before the reformation did the Church of England resemble more of the Oxford movement Church or of the Church that came from the Reformation?

Before the English Reformation? It exactly resembled the Catholic church--Latin Liturgy. The point of the Reformation was to remove all the excesses of Roman Catholicism.

Timothy · #69 9th November 2009, 11:55 AM

Sir, in 1536-7'/46 and again in Eliza's reign, both the English Church and state passed Canons affirming that the Church held to the First Four Councils and as many other as to the same. Meaning, according to commentators, that we believed that the first four were Christological, two were explanatory and the last, was, as Field and Laud put it , a matter of manners. In 1572, Convocation again affirmed its beliefs by stating nothing should be taught or accepted but was agreed and taught by the early Fathers. (Rough Trans. 39 Articles .Kidd.pg 13.]

That's not what the 39 Articles say at all, Kidd is rather biased. As to the '10 Articles', they merely state that the heresies that were repudiated by the councils of Nicea et. al are to be repudiated. Rather different from saying that they're infallible.

KarinP · #70 9th November 2009, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by SirTimothy

Before the English Reformation? It exactly resembled the Catholic church--Latin Liturgy. The point of the Reformation was to remove all the excesses of Roman Catholicism.

Actually, I think the original break with Rome in England was to stop the Pope interfering in English politics and especially so Henry VIII could divorce Catherine of Aragon and marry Anne Boleyn. Henry also liked the idea of keeping all the money that the English were giving to the Church. I think it started as the Catholic church without the Pope and developed more after Henry's death. It is true monks had become unpopular and deemed lazy and greedy, so many people were happy for Henry to dissolve the monasteries and grab the land to reward his supporters, but the 'excesses' were the excuse Henry needed. That is not to say that some of those who urged him to split with Rome may have wanted to bring an end to these excesses.