Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Razzel, you blew by this question in order to question the common ancestry of donkey and horse. So let me put the question to you again:
Now, please go back to the lab studies that I have referred to where different populations of a single species are placed in separate environments and you get 2 new completely interfertile populations -- new species -- but they can't breed with each other -- different kinds. How is that mimicking the TOC?
How are the lab studies mimicking TOC? I'd really like to know.
The TOC allows for some "evolution" of species. Kind would go back to when the species were not able to reproduce. In other words, if the animal cannot reproduce it is a new species but the kind is the parent of that species.
I know I know poor example but I'm tired give me a break. If a horse and a donkey produce a sterile offspring, the kind is horse and the kind is donkey. Mule is a hybred of the two kinds.
Friendly suggestion: After almost 1,000 posts, this thread has become unwieldy with all sorts of different questions, claims, and challenges. Maybe you could take the questions you still have and start new threads for each (not too many at a time, though!). Just a suggestion... -Ish
I don't see your problem razzelflabben. where does it go wrong for you?
population A is split into 2 populations, B and C. population B continues to breed amongst itself, and population C continues to breed amongst itself. over time B and C drift apart such that after a time T, no member of population B can breed with a member of population C, however all the members of B can breed with one another, and all the members of C can breed with one another. no loss of breeding viability within those groups ever occured.
can you tell me what you find wrong with that?
The problem is when breeding stops all together and only the original populations are breedable.
Right, but this does nothing to close the hole that offers the possibility that E does not happen.
Excuse me, but if you have really understood all that, what hole are you speaking of that still needs to be closed. How can it be possible that evolution does not happen when we have directly observed it happening?
Don't you see, things like ring species and other speciations, do nothing to prove the TOE only to prove the possibility of E.
How can speciation only prove the possibility of evolution? Speciation is the end-product of evolution. For goodness sakes, species change is evolution even without speciation. When you have species change producing speciation, you have even more evidence than you need to show that evolution is a fact.
What in the world more do you think is needed to show that evolution is a fact, not just a possibility?
...especially when one realized how compatable the evidence is to the original TOC. You know, that theory that has repeatedly been falsified, that is compatable with the evidences you present.
Does TOC predict speciation? One species/kind changing until it becomes another species/kind that can no longer inter-breed with the original species/kind?
If you answer yes, please explain how it can predict speciation and still assert that creatures are created "after their kind".
__________________ The high, the low, all of creation God gives to humankind to use. If this privilege is misused, God's Justice permits creation to punish humanity~~ Hildegard of Bingen cited in, Earth Prayers from around the World
OK, stop and think about this a moment. A grave is dug. That means that the fill of the grave is different in composition from the layers of sediment around it. Right? As you dig the grave, you break up the layers with your shovel or whatever tool you are using. Then you just dump what you scooped out back in, with it all mixed up. So, as a paleontologist later looking at the site, as you carefully excavate, you see that the dirt/rock around the body is all broken up bits and pieces. Then you come to the edge of the grave and have a transition from all jumbled up to regular layers.
From history, we know that not all burial was dug. Some were in caves. And BTW, how does this prove that the fossil record is conclusive?
Razzel, you don't need to play the martyr. And that isn't going to make your ideas valid or invalid. What you need to do is think about the ideas you are posting in an attempt to show them wrong. Before you post them. If you can't show them wrong after a real honest, hard try, then put them out there to see if we can.
Now whether or not you understand this, I do consider myself dumb, but some of the comments made on this thread have been counter productive to the disucssion because they assume that I am not smart enough to perpose a viable possible explaination. I am thinking, that is why I have questions, and why I question the conclusiveness of the evidence. If I wasn't thinking, I would blindly follow the teaching without ever offering questions or hypothesis.
However, if you don't use basic common sense on your ideas or put a little thought into them, then you can hardly complain if someone impolitely comments that the idea is silly. You can rightly call them on their manners, but that isn't going to save the idea.
What basic common sense would you have me apply, that burial can only occur by digging a hole. Do try to use more common sense than that when putting forth an arguement okay?
* Jet Black is really confused as to what would convince razzelflabben now
I guess.
She agrees that speciation occurs, but still insists evolution is "only a possibility for which there is no overwhelming evidence."
PS cute hippy flares.
__________________ The high, the low, all of creation God gives to humankind to use. If this privilege is misused, God's Justice permits creation to punish humanity~~ Hildegard of Bingen cited in, Earth Prayers from around the World
The TOC allows for some "evolution" of species. Kind would go back to when the species were not able to reproduce. In other words, if the animal cannot reproduce it is a new species but the kind is the parent of that species.
Now you're talking about a hell of a lot more evolution than evolutionists think could occur in that small of a time frame.
The problem is when breeding stops all together and only the original populations are breedable.
Why would breeding stop, unless you're talking about hybrids again? The original population split (geographic isolation maybe?), and the more time passes, the more genetic changes each population accumulates. Shortly after the split, if members of the different populations met and attempted to breed, chances are that fertile offspring would result. But as time passes, this becomes less and less likely. Later, sterile hybrids may occasionally result from union between members of the different populations. But even this becomes less and less likely with time. At some point, no viable offspring will be possible. The populations would have each accumulated too many genetic changes to allow it.
But somewhere along the way, two completely sexually different creatures would have had to evolve that were compatable in every way reproductively.
No, not at all. Males and females do not have different sets of genes, since both get the same set of genes from both their mother and their father. (with the exception of some genes that are found on the X chromosome, but not on the Y chromosome. And those are just missing from the Y chromosome. No different genes are put in their place.)
We get male and female because the combination of X and Y chromosomes affects the development of the embryo differently than the combination of two X chromosomes. It is a matter of how the genes are expressed, not a matter of having different genes.
How big was this first population of male/female reproductive creatures, and how did they evolve as similar enough to reproduce but different enough to allow reproduction?
Probably quite large, though I couldn't give you an exact figure. What you need to take into account is that there is an intermediate step between asexual reproduction and male/female reproduction.
That is hermaphroditic reproduction. Many plants and animals are hermaphroditic. They are not male and female. They have the reproductive parts of both males and females. Hermaphroditic animals have both ovaries and a penis. They produce both eggs and sperm. They can take the role of either male or female in a mating, and they can mate with every other mature member of their species.
Sometimes they even have duels to determine who will be the male and who will be the female.
Now, if you begin with a hermaphroditic species, and everyone having the same genes, you get to a male/female species when some individuals begin to specialize in being male or female.
This is easy to see in plants. Some trees, for example, produce two kinds of flowers, one male and one female. Its not a big step from that to have an all-male plant and an all-female plant.
__________________ The high, the low, all of creation God gives to humankind to use. If this privilege is misused, God's Justice permits creation to punish humanity~~ Hildegard of Bingen cited in, Earth Prayers from around the World
How pray tell, The fossils prove that "John existed" (evolution is possible) finding the lineages and connections is "proving John was in the cave" (overwhelming evidence of the TOE) apples to apples
And finding some lineages and connections (such as in observed speciation) shows that evolution actually happens.
Finding evidence of further lineages and connections provides additional evidence that evolution has happened.
Finding additional evidence of the relatedness of all life supports common descent.
So we have direct evidence that evolution is a fact, and lots of evidence that it is not just a fact today, but has been a fact in the past as well, including evidence of a common ancestor of all living organisms.
And more to the point, we have NO contradictory evidence.
That is what really puts the icing on the cake and makes the evidence in favour overwhelming.
__________________ The high, the low, all of creation God gives to humankind to use. If this privilege is misused, God's Justice permits creation to punish humanity~~ Hildegard of Bingen cited in, Earth Prayers from around the World
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