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20th August 2004, 10:44 PM
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Reps: 406,903,328,345,094,208 (power: 406,903,328,345,118) | | Originally Posted by mrversatile48 I've often recommended Job 38/41, where God asks the questions & demands answers
Obviously, I don't have time to type 4 chapters out, but it makes great reading, so I'll just flip thru & put a few highlights...
"Then God answered Job from the storm..
"Who is this that makes my purpose unclear by saying things that are not true?...
"Where were you when I made the Earth's foundation?..
"Who marked off how big it should be?...
"What were the Earth's foundations set on?..
"Who did all this while the morning stars sang together? Who did this while the angels shouted with joy? ..
"Who shut the doors to keep the sea in when it broke thru & was born?..
It was I who said to the sea, 'You may come this far but no further ...
"Have you ever given orders for the morning to begin?...
"Have you shown the dawn where its place was?...
"Have you ever gone to where the sea begins?..
"Have the gates of death been open to you? ...
"Do you understand the great width of the Earth?...
"Surely you know, if you were already born when all this happened!
"Have you lived that many years?"
I'll leave it there, but can any reader imagine facing 4 chapters of questions like that, eyeball to eyeball with the Almighty?
I'm not trying to be rude to Jet, Ra or the others
Just to wake you up to the urgent reality
The verses don't mean what you say they mean. Remember the context. First God blessed Job, then ruined him as a test of his faithfulness. When Job complains at this unjust treatment, this is when the questions come forth. The gist is that Job has no basis to complain about what God does or doesn't do. It has nothing to do with firguring out how God created the universe. If you look at detail of the verses, God is saying things that are not true. For instance, a verse you didn't quote says "who laid its cornerstone" or "have you entered the storehouses of the snow, or have you seen the storehouses of the hail, which I have reserved for the time of trouble"
God also asks "Do you know when the mountain goats bring forth?" Well, Job may not have known, but we do, don't we?
Job is another part of the OT trying to understand the catastrophe of the Babylonian conquest. Job stands for Israel. It has been blessed by Yahweh in having Yahweh create Israel, the defeat of the Philistines, and the general prosperity. Israel seemed truly to be favored of God. And then disaster strikes. Babylon conqueors Israel. Israel goes thru a lot of soul searching and comes up with lots of explanations: the prophets says Israel was unfaithful to God and this caused the disaster; Job offers a different view that God is testing the faithfulness of Israel. It's easy to be faithful when things are going well, but can Israel/Job remain faithful when things go badly? Can Israel still trust God. Or more importantly, can faith be individual rather than to the nation. Job represents an advance of theology. Up until now gods are worshipped only so long as things go well for the country. But Job says that fortunes have nothing to do with being loyal to God.
my only duty is to pass on those warnings
As must any true servant of Christ
And my duty is to rebuke anyone who spouts nonsense about science and tries to use Bible verses to justify it. St. Augustine says so. Such individuals bring untold harm on Christianity.
Consider yourself warned.
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"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890 |
21st August 2004, 07:06 PM
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Reps: 83,051,053,141,145,168 (power: 83,051,053,141,158) | | Originally Posted by lucaspa And my duty is to rebuke anyone who spouts nonsense about science and tries to use Bible verses to justify it. St. Augustine says so. Such individuals bring untold harm on Christianity.
You have performed that duty well. This thread has been a long struggle--too long--and it has required immense patience on the part of those involved. But in the end science won and nonsense lost, and that is a good thing.
Cheers!
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23rd August 2004, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Jet Black well pass them to my ignore list.
No knowledge is more certain & sure than God's
Many prophecies are even written in the past tense - not just to describe a vision but to express absolute certainty of its fulfilment
"Let God be true & all men liars" says the Bible
Finite man makes many mistakes too
Yet, as 1 of the best loved/known prophecies of Christ says, @ 800BC..
"Who has believed our report & to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?...He was despised & rejected...like 1 from whom men hide their faces" - Isaiah 53
Must go!
Ian | | |
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