Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
It shows how the formation of new species inevitably leads to the formation of new genera and other "higher taxa".
"Low rank taxa--the many species known to us--have a real existence in nature, in that they consist of populations or morphologically similar, actually or potentially interbreeding individuals which live during a continuous segment of geologic time. Transitional fossils between morphologically distinct, chronologically successive species require us thus to conclude that a new species results from the operation of natural reproductive processes upon successive generations of a population without the intervention of special creative acts; i.e., through what the scientist terms "evolutionary processes.
"On the other hand, higher taxa--those above species-rank, from genera up through phyla--do not have a real existence in nature in quite the same sense that species do. Instead, higher taxa of various ranks are simply the scientist's mental abstractions by which the many species comprising the organic world are grouped according to the various degrees of over-all morphologic similarity displayed. Species which are very similar may be grouped within one genus, while species which have only a little in common may be grouped together only in the same class or phylum. Since higher taxa are no more that aggregations of species, transitional fossils between higher taxa indicate simply that, in time, the same natural ancestor-descendent process producing new species eventually produces a chain of successive and progressively more different species, whose final member will be drastically different in morphology from its initial member and will therefore be classified by taxonomists in a different high-rank taxon." Science and Creationism, 1983
__________________ "If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890
Your going to have to explain that one better, I don't understand how, speciation is the TOE. There is more to the theory than observed speciation. For example, if I introduced you to my children, you could easily believe they are my children. But how can you assume that I did not adopt them? That is an assumption that the evidence does not predict.
That is how I see speciation, it is easy to believe that they happen (are my children) but to assume that equals the TOE is like assuming my children are adopted or not.
there was quite alot more evidence there:
Observed speciation together with the observation of many of the mechanisms which lead to speciation (mutations, variation, genetic drift, natural selection) constitutes overwhelming evidence for TOE since this is what TOE predicted. And one can add in other predictions of TOE that have also been observed to be fact: the way DNA evidence of various sorts all end up creating the same phylogenetic tree, and the way that tree matches trees drawn up on the basis of morphology or geography or fossil distribution.
so we might look at you and your children and think that they are your children because they look like a mix of you and their father. but we can also look at their birth certificates, your birth certificates, marriage certificates and so on (for which there is no reason that they should match up unless there is an ancestral relationship) we can DNA fingerprint them, you and their father (again there is no good reason other than ancestry as to why these should all match up) we can do a mitochondrial analysis of the children and you - we will find that they all share the same mitochondria as you (for which there is no good reason other than ancestry) and we can do a y-chromosome sequencing of the father and the boys.... same thing, we will find that they all share the same y chromosome. Essentially what we are doing is the same as we do with evolutionary studies of biological organisms. we take all these independent bits of evidence, the looks, the DNA, the birth certificates, the mitochondria, the y-chromosomes, and we build up a picture.
__________________ MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
Their motivation is clear in Man's Maker's Manual...
Originally Posted by razzelflabben
Why is it so important to convince people that the TOE has overwhelming evidence to support it? This is something I have never been able to fathom. Why the issue is so important to so many people. I wouldn't have ever come here if it wasn't for correcting the misconceptions that were posted about me in the OP. I don't get why this topic is such a hot issue?
It's largely covered in that series of Bible prophecies I posted @ 2 hours ago
It's the same spirit of antichrist that was in the crowd who told Pilate, "Away with this Man - crucify Him - we will not have this man to reign over us!"
It's as in the prophecies about folk in the last days throwing off all restraint & doing only what they want to do
It's the desparation to pretend that there is no "Judge of all Earth to Whom we must all give account"
But the day of wrath & judment approaches fast
The sands of time are running out
Have you ever read the end of Revelation 9?
Even after a third of mankind is killed in war begun @ R Euphrates, the survivors still refuse to change their hearts & their ways - still refuse to repent of their adulteries, thefts, mutrders & their witchcraft, their worshipping demons
We even see the stage set for total Armageddon - which is when the armies of the world - a UN force - under Antichrist, invade Israel & attack God's holy city: Jerusalem
Yet, as I began to post from Isaiah 53, but had to go, that amazingly accurate prophecy @ Jesus includes Him being as 1 from whom men hide their faces
An even older prophecy - @ 1000 BC - was astoundingly accurate in detail about crucifixion, long before it had even been thought of
I'll leave open-minded folk to read the harrowing Psalm 22 on www.BibleGateway.org
Readers, if you don't know Jesus as your Lord & Saviour, now is the time to let Him re- create you from the inside
Going to church doesn't make 1 a Christian any more than going to McD's makes you a burger
And you have no idea that the Christians who disproved creationism were not Christians! How do you account for the fact that so many of them were ministers?
If God says 1 thing & all 6.5 billion people disagree, God is the 1 that is right
And what God says in His Creation is right, even tho you have your man-made interpretation of Genesis 1.
"& the evening & the morning were the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th day..
"in the day God created the heaveins and the earth" So God said two things in the Bible.
God said, Let there be...
"Let the waters bring forth ..." "Let the land bring forth ... " "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air" Again, different things.
& it was good/perfect"
Changed the translation! It is not "perfect". Only good.
Thank you for showing worship of the Bible and not God. This is why Biblical literalism and creationism is false preaching. It denies that God created and subsititutes woriship of a false idol (man-made literal interpretation of Genesis) over God.
__________________ "If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890
I doubt very much that you have read much of Man's Maker's Manual: the Bible
Which is far more beneficial
Vital in fact
nice dodge:
judging by all the errors you make when describing [Evolutionary theory], I doubt you actually understood a word of it.
unless you want to explain why you make all the errors that you do? I mean, it seems rather odd to me that someone who claims to have a good knowledge of evolution would make errors like these:
ET poppycock is full of "primitive forms..more advanced forms"
I'll let open minded readers examine the earlier posts here that were presenting a long series of skulls as proof of progress onwards & upwards
they do a bonza dinosaur burger to thius very day!!!!!!
(in response to)
Originally Posted by Jimmy the Hand
So articulate one, give us one example of a "most complex" fossil found in the Cambrian.
back to quotes from you
There was definitely a hoax made up solely from the tooth of an extinct pig...
........as in the tooth of an extinct pig that was used to hoax false ET evidence called either Nebraska Man or Piltdown Man
Both were deliberate hoaxes
These are all trivial errors that you are making, which anyone with a good undertanding of biology and evolution just wouldn't make.
__________________ MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
I havent got time to read all this post or all the threads on this topic at the moment but considering the argument is that TE's also believe in God, stating that Genesis is to be read allegorical isnt good enough. Please can a TE explain how Genesis fits in with Evolution? Why was it even written and in the Bible if it doesnt have a reason to be there? I dont see the point in God putting some myth in the Bible that has no point at all to anyone. In fact I prefer to rip that part out of my Bible if it has no reason to be there. Of course as a creationist I find it has lots of meaning and reason to be there. I dont find any arguments for why the creation account couldnt have at least been written in the right order to match evolution.
On another thread I am waiting for an answer regarding where Man's soul came from too. When we became man and in the image of God?
I havent got time to read all this post or all the threads on this topic at the moment but considering the argument is that TE's also believe in God, stating that Genesis is to be read allegorical isnt good enough. Please can a TE explain how Genesis fits in with Evolution? Why was it even written and in the Bible if it doesnt have a reason to be there? I dont see the point in God putting some myth in the Bible that has no point at all to anyone. In fact I prefer to rip that part out of my Bible if it has no reason to be there. Of course as a creationist I find it has lots of meaning and reason to be there. I dont find any arguments for why the creation account couldnt have at least been written in the right order to match evolution.
On another thread I am waiting for an answer regarding where Man's soul came from too. When we became man and in the image of God?
do us a favour and start another thread. we're having enough trouble with MrVersatile perpetually (rudely) interrupting the rest of the conversation. Would you walk up to a group of people in the street, butt into their conversation and start talking about something entirely different to what they are talking about? no? well don't do it here either. thanks.
__________________ MSci MSc ARCS DIC PhD..... yes, I am bragging.
well the mule is a hybrid, but it is an infertile one. It exists because the horse and the donkey species haven't totally separated, but they are separate enough to not be able to mix the genes in their gene pools (the mule doesn't really count, because no genes can cross from the horse gene pool to the donkey one, since any crosses are infertile) actually some hinnys (female mules) can breed, but it is very rare. I think there have been about 2 pregnant hinnies on record.
..all this, & much more, is sheer speculation, guess-timation & interpretation!
I've often recommended Job 38/41, where God asks the questions & demands answers
Obviously, I don't have time to type 4 chapters out, but it makes great reading, so I'll just flip thru & put a few highlights...
"Then God answered Job from the storm..
"Who is this that makes my purpose unclear by saying things that are not true?...
"Where were you when I made the Earth's foundation?..
"Who marked off how big it should be?...
"What were the Earth's foundations set on?..
"Who did all this while the morning stars sang together? Who did this while the angels shouted with joy? ..
"Who shut the doors to keep the sea in when it broke thru & was born?..
It was I who said to the sea, 'You may come this far but no further ...
"Have you ever given orders for the morning to begin?...
"Have you shown the dawn where its place was?...
"Have you ever gone to where the sea begins?..
"Have the gates of death been open to you? ...
"Do you understand the great width of the Earth?...
"Surely you know, if you were already born when all this happened!
"Have you lived that many years?"
I'll leave it there, but can any reader imagine facing 4 chapters of questions like that, eyeball to eyeball with the Almighty?
I'm not trying to be rude to Jet, Ra or the others
Just to wake you up to the urgent reality
& don't any of you think you can somehow torture me with your stubbornness: Ezekiel 2/3 is very clear that, when God gives warning - (in HIs Word or its fulfilment) - my only duty is to pass on those warnings
As must any true servant of Christ
The decision is yours
Last edited by mrversatile48; 20th August 2004 at 11:51 AM.
Reason: typo
I havent got time to read all this post or all the threads on this topic at the moment but considering the argument is that TE's also believe in God, stating that Genesis is to be read allegorical isnt good enough. Please can a TE explain how Genesis fits in with Evolution? Why was it even written and in the Bible if it doesnt have a reason to be there? I dont see the point in God putting some myth in the Bible that has no point at all to anyone. In fact I prefer to rip that part out of my Bible if it has no reason to be there. Of course as a creationist I find it has lots of meaning and reason to be there. I dont find any arguments for why the creation account couldnt have at least been written in the right order to match evolution.
On another thread I am waiting for an answer regarding where Man's soul came from too. When we became man and in the image of God?
Isn't this thread enough of a monster? Please start new threads for your questions. Thanks.
Linear Mode
