Would God have realized even without foreknowledge that even the best humans He could make would over an infinite amount of time not be able to of their own human power to continue to be obedient?
Would you prefer to have your eternal close relationship with God dependent on you personal ability to be obedient or on God’s love/grace/mercy?
How are Adam and Eve better off out side the Garden after sinning then in the garden prior to sinning?
Though a complete answer can't be given, purposes for the manifestation of sin have been put forth.
(a) The ultimate purpose of God being to bring men into the likeness of Himself, they, to reach this end, must come to know to some degree what God knows. They must recognize the evil character of sin. This God knows intuitively, but such knowledge can be gain by creatures only through observation and experience.
(b) There is that in God which no creature had ever seen, namely, His grace toward the fallen and sinful. No demonstration of grace is possible unless there are objects, and there could be no objects apart from the presence and experience of sin.
(c) Likewise, the principle of sin must be brought into complete and final judgment. The universe must be purged of the realities of sin and its possibilities. An abstract thing cannot be rightfully judged until it has become concrete. Thus it may be judged in its actual character, as it was at the cross.
The first mention of sin takes place in a conversation between God and Cain:
Gen 4:7 "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
God reveals that sin is the cause of problems in our lives, and makes us unacceptable to God. It's influence is strong and aimed at our destruction. Note that sin is 'personified' by the pronoun 'his'. We are to recognize 'him' and prevail, or rule over 'him'. This is really hand-to-hand combat with our own demons.
Picture sin as the water a swimmer must overcome to reach his goal. The water resists him, and in fact stands ready to drown him. But the effort strengthens the swimmer, and if he continues to realize that he is always in grave danger of drowning he will survive and ultimately prevail, or finish the race for the prize.
We are placed in an evil world dominated by sin. It will destroy us or strengthen us. Our choice. If we choose to swim hard God will help us. If not, we will drown.
So, while the purpose, or desire, of sin is to destroy us, we are to purposely use the fight to strengthen ourselves spiritually. Therein lies the purpose of sin for us.
Though a complete answer can't be given, purposes for the manifestation of sin have been put forth.
(a) The ultimate purpose of God being to bring men into the likeness of Himself, they, to reach this end, must come to know to some degree what God knows. They must recognize the evil character of sin. This God knows intuitively, but such knowledge can be gain by creatures only through observation and experience.
(b) There is that in God which no creature had ever seen, namely, His grace toward the fallen and sinful. No demonstration of grace is possible unless there are objects, and there could be no objects apart from the presence and experience of sin.
(c) Likewise, the principle of sin must be brought into complete and final judgment. The universe must be purged of the realities of sin and its possibilities. An abstract thing cannot be rightfully judged until it has become concrete. Thus it may be judged in its actual character, as it was at the cross.
In Christ,
Tracey
(a) I think God’s purpose as it relates to humans is: “To do all He can to help those that are willing fulfill their objective”. The object of humans while on earth is to Love God with all our heart, soul, mind and energy and to Love others. Godly type Love is the attribute we have to obtain while on earth the rest can be given to us directly by God. How does “sin” help us to obtain Godly type Love? (b) Why do all mature adult humans have to sin and not just a few so we could have an object lesson? (c) You have really gotten philosophical with this. That does not explain why I must sin?
The first mention of sin takes place in a conversation between God and Cain:
Gen 4:7 "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
God reveals that sin is the cause of problems in our lives, and makes us unacceptable to God. It's influence is strong and aimed at our destruction. Note that sin is 'personified' by the pronoun 'his'. We are to recognize 'him' and prevail, or rule over 'him'. This is really hand-to-hand combat with our own demons.
Picture sin as the water a swimmer must overcome to reach his goal. The water resists him, and in fact stands ready to drown him. But the effort strengthens the swimmer, and if he continues to realize that he is always in grave danger of drowning he will survive and ultimately prevail, or finish the race for the prize.
We are placed in an evil world dominated by sin. It will destroy us or strengthen us. Our choice. If we choose to swim hard God will help us. If not, we will drown.
So, while the purpose, or desire, of sin is to destroy us, we are to purposely use the fight to strengthen ourselves spiritually. Therein lies the purpose of sin for us.
owg
I do not see the use of water in the analogy of sin. Sin is like quicksand and the harder we try to fight it on our own the more it drags us under. We must seek the hand of God that is reaching out for us and accept His salvation. Being rescued, washed and made whole again will make us thankful and Loving our savior (that is the way humans are made). So is that the purpose of the quicksand?
(b) Why do all mature adult humans have to sin and not just a few so we could have an object lesson?
The doctrine of original sin divides into two branches of truth which are unrelated other than they proceed from the same source. The first division, which is original corruption, or spiritual death, contends that the whole race has inherited from its progenitor an impaired nature which is always and incurably at enmity with God. Thus being, man, in God's sight, is totally depraved and spiritually dead. This is the root from which, as fruit, evil thoughts, words, and actions spring. The doctrine contends, likewise, that evil works are a reasonable manifestation of that corrupt nature.
Though our corrupt nature is not eradicated, short of our total glorification, the Christian, when rightly related to indwelling Spirit, has the ability to overcome. This success, if it's to become a reality in daily life, calls for a peculiar and altogether different plan or principle of living. While provision is made, I would approach with skepticism anyone claiming they've no sin.
I do not see the use of water in the analogy of sin. Sin is like quicksand and the harder we try to fight it on our own the more it drags us under. We must seek the hand of God that is reaching out for us and accept His salvation. Being rescued, washed and made whole again will make us thankful and Loving our savior (that is the way humans are made). So is that the purpose of the quicksand?
God told Cain to "rule over sin". He did not remove sin from Cain, or Cain from sin. Neither has he done this for us. I, like Paul, still struggle with sin even as a Christian of many years. Quicksand is a one-time event, metaphorically speaking: you are either saved or you die. Swimming, or struggling, against sin is a lifelong effort where one usually gets stronger. Quicksand saps all of your strength, and you die, unless rescued. I don't like that analogy at all, although it might fit some serious sins that take total control of a person from time to time, requiring heroic rescue by God.
owg
Last edited by oldwiseguy; 4th July 2008 at 11:53 PM.
God told Cain to "rule over sin". He did not remove sin from Cain, or Cain from sin. Neither has he done this for us. I, like Paul, still struggle with sin even as a Christian of many years. Quicksand is a one-time event, metaphorically speaking: you are either saved or you die. Swimming, or struggling, against sin is a lifelong effort where one usually gets stronger. Quicksand saps all of your strength, and you die, unless rescued. I don't like that analogy at all, although it might fit some serious sins that take total control of a person from time to time, requiring heroic rescue by God.
owg
It is extremely difficult to write good parables. So lets stick scripture references. I have studied Rm. 7: 14-24 and do not feel you are using the proper interpretation of that passage. . Paul is writing to the Romans in Rome that are very familiar with the way victorious battles are described. They are done in the “historic present tense” the way the Gospel of Mark was written probably from Rome. Paul in Romans 7: 14-24 is describing his historical (back when he first became a Christian) victory over sin in the present tense (the way victories were described by the Romans). Paul is not continuing to have the problem with sin that he describes in Romans 7: 14-24. He is introducing the victory he now has with the indwelling Holy Spirit that is expanded on in chapter 8. Romans 7: 14-24 is not the way a mature Spirit felled Christian is. That does not mean we can not sin again or will not sin again, 1John 2:1 says “…but if…” and not “but when”. One of the differences between the Christian and non Christian is the Christian does not have to sin again, but may. Satan and demons are very power spiritual beings that require super human powers to over come over the long run. We are still responsible for our sins since we could keep from doing any one sin for a time, but we will sin without the power available with the indwelling Holy Spirit. The question is still does (some) sin has a purpose for the good of humans, specifically does sin have a purpose for the future Christian while he is a non Christian?
It is extremely difficult to write good parables. So lets stick scripture references. I have studied Rm. 7: 14-24 and do not feel you are using the proper interpretation of that passage. . Paul is writing to the Romans in Rome that are very familiar with the way victorious battles are described. They are done in the “historic present tense” the way the Gospel of Mark was written probably from Rome. Paul in Romans 7: 14-24 is describing his historical (back when he first became a Christian) victory over sin in the present tense (the way victories were described by the Romans). Paul is not continuing to have the problem with sin that he describes in Romans 7: 14-24. He is introducing the victory he now has with the indwelling Holy Spirit that is expanded on in chapter 8. Romans 7: 14-24 is not the way a mature Spirit felled Christian is. That does not mean we can not sin again or will not sin again, 1John 2:1 says “…but if…” and not “but when”. One of the differences between the Christian and non Christian is the Christian does not have to sin again, but may. Satan and demons are very power spiritual beings that require super human powers to over come over the long run. We are still responsible for our sins since we could keep from doing any one sin for a time, but we will sin without the power available with the indwelling Holy Spirit. The question is still does (some) sin has a purpose for the good of humans, specifically does sin have a purpose for the future Christian while he is a non Christian?
Paul presents a seeming dilemna between following the spirit and following the flesh. But finally concludes with the cruel irony that indeed he will continue to sin while in the flesh, but will be delivered from the flesh at last.
23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Regarding the reading of scriptures as presented in most bibles. The chapter and verse breaks were added for study and reference purposes (this is not unknown, but often forgotten leadiing to isolating verses, often completely out of context).
Notice the way verses 24 and 25 are divided. Doesn't it stike you funny that the sentence, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." wasn't placed as the conclusion of verse 24, thus answering the question of "who shall deliver me"...?
Instead it is placed at the beginning of verse 25, completely out of place.
This shows the over exhuberant spiritual 'zeal' of the editors in trying to spiritualize a carnal truth that Paul was trying to explain. Here's how I think it should read:
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Paul presents a seeming dilemna between following the spirit and following the flesh. But finally concludes with the cruel irony that indeed he will continue to sin while in the flesh, but will be delivered from the flesh at last.
23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Regarding the reading of scriptures as presented in most bibles. The chapter and verse breaks were added for study and reference purposes (this is not unknown, but often forgotten leadiing to isolating verses, often completely out of context).
Notice the way verses 24 and 25 are divided. Doesn't it stike you funny that the sentence, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." wasn't placed as the conclusion of verse 24, thus answering the question of "who shall deliver me"...?
Instead it is placed at the beginning of verse 25, completely out of place.
This shows the over exhuberant spiritual 'zeal' of the editors in trying to spiritualize a carnal truth that Paul was trying to explain. Here's how I think it should read:
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Now isn't that better?
owg-new bible editor
The question is, Was Paul’s use of the present tense in Rms. 7:14-24 for the same reason Mark used the present tense in his Gospel? And did Mark use the present tense to mimic the messages of the Roman victories sent out with messengers after each major Roman victory, always dramatically presented in the present tense. Paul is certainly presenting a victory message over sin and the only proper way to sent that message to the Romans in Roman surrounded by present tense written memorials to Roman victories battle,would be in the historical present tense.
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