What example do you have (other then Christ) of a normal mature adult human obtaining Godly type Love without first receiving Godly type Love from God through forgiveness?
Adam and Eve before the fall? Would God have created them with any other kind of love and considered them "good"? And if they weren't created with that kind of love, from what did they fall?
If sin is not necessary then why do all have to sin?
Necessary for what? Love? Forgiveness? Something else? Sin's "necessity" in forgiveness exists by default, but even forgiveness and mercy follow from love, and do not come before it. So I do not think that sin is necessary whatsoever for love even if it is necessary for mercy as one expression of that same love. I also think your question is inversed -- I do not believe anyone must necessarily sin because Adam and Eve were created in God's image, which I imagine does not include sin. So I do not think there was anything in their nature which made necessary for them to sin, though free will certainly made it possible.
Am Catholic said: Adam and Eve before the fall? Would God have created them with any other kind of love and considered them "good"? And if they weren't created with that kind of love, from what did they fall?
Yes, they would have instinctively: a parent/ child love, spousal love, friendship type love, love of nature, love of beauty, love of creation, love of good, love of other created beings, and a love of self (ego and desire for self preservation). Their Love for God as their most wonderful giving parent would be very strong. The problem is God can not instinctively provide them with Godly type Love as explained in the Bible and especially with 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4, since that type Love requires the agent to make the free will choice to Love over other likely perceived alternatives. Adam and Eve fell from the relationship with God that was not separated by sin. Adam and Eve did not have Godly type Love for if they had they would not have disobeyed. “…if you Love me you will obey me…” They did not need God to Love them with Godly type Love since they were up until they sinned wonderful obedient children. They would have had to humbly accept God’s free undeserving gift of Godly type Love, with out have a real need to humble themselves since they had done nothing wrong.
Am Catholic said: Necessary for what? Love? Forgiveness? Something else? Sin's "necessity" in forgiveness exists by default, but even forgiveness and mercy follow from love, and do not come before it. So I do not think that sin is necessary whatsoever for love even if it is necessary for mercy as one expression of that same love. I also think your question is inversed -- I do not believe anyone must necessarily sin because Adam and Eve were created in God's image, which I imagine does not include sin. So I do not think there was anything in their nature which made necessary for them to sin, though free will certainly made it possible.
At extremely great personal sacrifice God has chosen to Love us. His Love is portrayed as being totally unselfish. We have been created in such a way that we can also obtain such a Love to at least some extent. That ability to Love is as far as God can go in making us like Him, since Godly type Love is the personal choice of the independent agent. God can not force this Love on us (robotic Love), but He can make it as easy as possible for us to just accept this Love from Him. The easiest way is to accept Godly type Love is in the form of forgiveness/ mercy/ grace/ Love.
To avoid the punishment of “death” Adam and Eve were created with the desire for self preservation. Self preservation creates self esteem and an ego which works against humbling oneself and trusting in others. It takes trust and humility to accept an undeserving gift as an undeserving gift.
Though our corrupt nature is not eradicated, short of our total glorification, the Christian, when rightly related to indwelling Spirit, has the ability to overcome. This success, if it's to become a reality in daily life, calls for a peculiar and altogether different plan or principle of living. While provision is made, I would approach with skepticism anyone claiming they've no sin.
In Christ,
Tracey
You say that "the Christian, when rightly related to [the] indwelling [Holy] Spirit, has the ability to overcome [sin.]" I believe that nearly all Christians would agree with this statement! I believe that most Christians think that surely somewhere in the world there must be at least one Christian that God has so filled with His Holy Spirit that sin no longer has any dominion over him or her. This Christian most likely has the ability to resist all sinful actions (but ONLY because of the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the fact that he (or she) is abiding completely and totally in Christ.) They actually find the Christian walk to be an easy and natural way of life.
I happen to know at least two people who are like this.
Right about now most of you are beginning to get upset. You are thinking "sure somewhere there may be someone but he or she cannot be here or now. The audacity of this stupid jerk to think that the Christian life is "easy and natural" I've been a Christian for XX years and I still have to fight hard against sin each and every day. This guy is nothing but a self righteous Pharisee and obviously doesn't know what sin is."
So we have on one hand you say "it is possible" and on the other "no it isn't?" So which is it?
Does "Godly type Love" preclude free will?
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No, if you have Godly type Love you can and will obey, but you can quench your Love and disobey. If you do not have Godly type Love then you can do nothing right. 1 Cor 13.
You say that "the Christian, when rightly related to [the] indwelling [Holy] Spirit, has the ability to overcome [sin.]" I believe that nearly all Christians would agree with this statement! I believe that most Christians think that surely somewhere in the world there must be at least one Christian that God has so filled with His Holy Spirit that sin no longer has any dominion over him or her. This Christian most likely has the ability to resist all sinful actions (but ONLY because of the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the fact that he (or she) is abiding completely and totally in Christ.) They actually find the Christian walk to be an easy and natural way of life.
I happen to know at least two people who are like this.
Right about now most of you are beginning to get upset. You are thinking "sure somewhere there may be someone but he or she cannot be here or now. The audacity of this stupid jerk to think that the Christian life is "easy and natural" I've been a Christian for XX years and I still have to fight hard against sin each and every day. This guy is nothing but a self righteous Pharisee and obviously doesn't know what sin is."
So we have on one hand you say "it is possible" and on the other "no it isn't?" So which is it?
Ben
I agree that with the indwelling Holy Spirit we can keep from sinning, but it is easy with our free will to quench the Spirit and be selfish. I thought for a long time all modern day Christians sinned daily. Only after teaching Bible in prison did I see truly Spirit filled Christians under strong persecution sometimes risking their lives that had to and did go for long periods of time not sinning (they were watched constantly by sniches looking for a sign of weakness so the bulls could try to make them slaves.) Any sign of sinning would cause them to be attacted and some were attacked for just looking like they might have sinned.
Would God have realized even without foreknowledge that even the best humans He could make would over an infinite amount of time not be able to of their own human power to continue to be obedient?
Would you prefer to have your eternal close relationship with God dependent on you personal ability to be obedient or on God’s love/grace/mercy?
How are Adam and Eve better off out side the Garden after sinning then in the garden prior to sinning?
I'd say that if sin does have a purpose, it is to show us more clearly when we wander from God ultimately how much we truly need Him. You can be a parent telling a child not to do something and why, but many times the child will not fully get "why" until they do the action and learn things the hard ways.
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