Every human (other then Christ who came to earth with Godly type Love) that has ever obtained Godly type Love initially accepted that Love through accepting God’s forgiveness/mercy/grace/Love. We know of know other way and I do not see any other way, so sin is required to initially accept forgiveness (Love) from God.
Thank you for bring them up. Any interpretation is only as good as it’s handling of the perceived exceptions. Adam and Eve are very unique.
Yes! God Loved them like He Loves all innocent people. But did the two way transaction of Love happen between God and Adam & Eve? God Loves all that He created, but that does not mean all have received His Love. Can you “accept” God’s Love with the wrong attitude? Did the transaction of “Love” happen if you feel the following way: • If God Loves him, then he surely must Love me, because I am a good guy. • An extension on the loan (Matt. 18: 21-35) • So how much do I owe you? • What must I do now? (No free lunch) • I knew if I played my cards right I could bluff my way in. • I could possible use some fire insurance. • Doesn’t membership have some privileges? • I have kept the rules.
We know “…If you Love me you will obey me…” so Adam and Eve did not “Love” God. But the question is did they receive God’s Love? The rain falls on the atheist field and the Christian’s field, so did they both receive God’s Love? Adam and Eve where good obedient Children and had no reason to believe God would not love them as a wonderful parent loves wonderful children, but that is not Godly type Love and God is Loving them with greater Love then a parent /Child love. How would Adam & Eve ever recognize Godly type Love from God, since they did not need that type Love from God? Why would Adam & Eve need to humble themselves before God, they had done nothing wrong?
It's not a question of whether Adam and Eve loved God, but whether God required Adam and Eve to sin before His love for them could be effective. You stated that " sin is required to initially accept forgiveness (Love) from God". You are suggesting that sin is a component of love.
It's not a question of whether Adam and Eve loved God, but whether God required Adam and Eve to sin before His love for them could be effective. You stated that " sin is required to initially accept forgiveness (Love) from God". You are suggesting that sin is a component of love.
I would not say that at all. It is a component of humans initially accepting God’s Love. It is not what God/Christ/Holy Spirit need to Love and there is no initial point for them they always were and so always Loved. One reason I see it as an initial component for humans is because, so far, it has always been the initial component. All mature adult humans have sinned, so they all need forgiveness. Forgiveness is part of Godly type Love.
Since God is a perfect God and makes no mistakes nor is surprized by anything in this creation. How do you explain the exsistance of sin apart from God's devine presence. What can come into being in what He created if He has not willed it to be so. Can a cancer cell develope apart from a body. It is the same with all in the creation. God has purpose in it and his infinite mind is so far above ours that we can't even fathom what it is that He is doing with His creation. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that He is refining It to make it more acceptable to what He sees as it's end. If sin did not have purpose, it would not, could not be here.
I do not know if we can say definitively that God created sin in the way God would define "created". God allowed satan and others to sin of their own free will.
God created Satan to be our adversary. There is nothing to suggest that Satan rebelled by his own free will.
1 John 3:8
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
NKJV
John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV
__________________ "Surely what a man does when he is taken off his guard is the best evidence for what sort of man he is..."
God created Satan to be our adversary. There is nothing to suggest that Satan rebelled by his own free will.
1 John 3:8
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
NKJV
John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV
The two verse you quote do not suggest God created satan for evil. The first one says, Jesus was manifested by destroying satan’s works, but not that God made satan.
“from the beginning” can mean from the beginning of human time. Satan was an angel and was good at one time prier to His fall.
Using John 8: 44 …When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. Scripture says, satan lies from his Own Resources and in contrast from the way Christ speaks. God did not create satan to rebel, but that does not mean there would not be those that would rebel from all God created.
Since God is a perfect God and makes no mistakes nor is surprized by anything in this creation. How do you explain the exsistance of sin apart from God's devine presence.
The "creation" of sin suggests sin has a purpose. In response to the original post, my answer is "no", sin does not have a purpose. I assert this claim because God not only because God is perfectly good, but that He is good. The "existence" of sin is not the actual existence of anything; it is the absence of something.
What can come into being in what He created if He has not willed it to be so. Can a cancer cell develope apart from a body.
I do not think the analogy is valid.
God has purpose in it and his infinite mind is so far above ours that we can't even fathom what it is that He is doing with His creation. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that He is refining It to make it more acceptable to what He sees as it's end. If sin did not have purpose, it would not, could not be here.
The good God makes or illustrates from evil does not suggest that God created sin for that specific purpose. Rather, it's an immediate demonstration of God's power who has the capacity to subdue evil for his own purposes. I think the assertion that God's goodness requires evil to operate effectively implies a weakness in His goodness. God is good and therefore good exists as something apart to itself. Evil therefore "exists" in contrast to good, and not vice versa. Why does an all-powerful, all-good, and perfect God require that which He is not to justify Himself?
The "creation" of sin suggests sin has a purpose. In response to the original post, my answer is "no", sin does not have a purpose. I assert this claim because God not only because God is perfectly good, but that He is good. The "existence" of sin is not the actual existence of anything; it is the absence of something.
I do not think the analogy is valid.
The good God makes or illustrates from evil does not suggest that God created sin for that specific purpose. Rather, it's an immediate demonstration of God's power who has the capacity to subdue evil for his own purposes. I think the assertion that God's goodness requires evil to operate effectively implies a weakness in His goodness. God is good and therefore good exists as something apart to itself. Evil therefore "exists" in contrast to good, and not vice versa. Why does an all-powerful, all-good, and perfect God require that which He is not to justify Himself?
What example do you have (other then Christ) of a normal mature adult human obtaining Godly type Love without first receiving Godly type Love from God through forgiveness? If sin is not necessary then why do all have to sin? Is it sin for God to allow sin to happen by free will agents He has created?
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