Veneration of Relics of Saints

Meshavrischika · #31 27th June 2008, 05:03 PM

I'm not. I consider that integral.

Canaan-84 · #32 27th June 2008, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by vanshan

An important part of our walk in Christ throughout the centuries has been the veneration of holy relics, not as objects of idolatry, but as objects through which God has manifested miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament we can read about the honor given to some of the dead bodies of righteous men and the miracles performed by God through them, such as the resurrection from death of one man when he came into contact with the bones of Elisha the prophet (2 Kings 13:21), and so it's no mystery that these things have continued occuring with the Church, and even more so, since God has now poured out His Spirit on all flesh starting at Pentecost.

Here are two examples of holy relics and the honor shown to them:

The incorrupt hand of Saint John Chrysostom (407 A.D.):

Veneration of the incorrupt skull of Saint John Chrysostom:

The honor shown the relics of saints, or other objects, like pieces of the cross which Christ was crucified upon, really is honor shown to God Who worked through these men and things, not to the things themselves by their own merit. God is glorified in these things.

Basil

Here are more examples:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Relics.asp

Relics in Scripture

Keep in mind what the Church says about relics. It doesn’t say there is some magical power in them. There is nothing in the relic itself, whether a bone of the apostle Peter or water from Lourdes, that has any curative ability. The Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.

The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: "So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!

Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).

If these aren’t examples of the use of relics, what are? In the case of Elisha, a Lazarus-like return from the dead was brought about through the prophet’s bones. In the New Testament cases, physical things (the cloak, the shadow, handkerchiefs and aprons) were used to effect cures. There is a perfect congruity between present-day Catholic practice and ancient practice. If you reject all Catholic relics today as frauds, you should also reject these biblical accounts as frauds.

MamaZ · #33 28th June 2008, 09:00 AM

Where do you see in any of scripture where it is Gods will that men bow and kiss dead bones?

Meshavrischika · #34 28th June 2008, 11:03 PM

I think this subject needs a little more tolerance. It's the belief and faith after all working. If they believe and have faith that God will use this medium, something in me says He just might. It's about the power of Him and their belief in THAT power.... I kinda think this is one practice open for interpretation and not so "out of line" as I view alot of them from more orthodox members of the body.

vanshan · #35 30th June 2008, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by ElsanRandiMom

like the woman who touched Christ's garment, the magic was not in the garment but in her faith. It's not about the objects themselves at all, or even God using the objects, it's the faith of the person.

God responds to our faith, and His Spirit moves on our behalf in accordance with God's will, sometimes through material objects, such as the water of baptism and the bread and wine of communion. We are not gnostics, believing the material world is inherently bad, and therefore unusable by God. Material things can be sanctified by God to serve His purposes for us, including the relics of those who are alive in Christ, but absent from their bodies.

In Christ our bodies becoming dwelling places of the Holy Spirit, but in measure to our submission to God's activity within us. He never possesses us. We must invite Him in. Some remain very inhospitable homes for God's Spirit, still being slaves of sin; whereas, some have submitted so fully to God's transforming power that they themselves have become beacons of light to the rest of us. This is not light originating from themselves, but the light of God's presence shining through them. God is glorified in His saints. In the Orthodox Church we commemorate different holy men and women each day of the year, because they are examples to us of the extent which we all can be transformed back into the image of God, even in this life. We honor them--and this is to the glory of the God, Who works within them. It takes nothing away from the glory of God, it actually elevates that praise of God, seeing His love for man manifested through these earthly vessels of His Spirit.

Basil

Meshavrischika · #36 30th June 2008, 09:38 AM

whereas, some have submitted so fully to God's transforming power that they themselves have become beacons of light to the rest of us

each man has his own measure of faith... to believe that some are "better" at this than others defies the idea that God knows who you are and where you're going. He knows all about you, and even the level of intimacy you will achieve with Him. You cannot disappoint Him this way... therefore there is really no one with "more" or "less" submission than another because we are not all held to the same standard, but each to our own in Christ. It's not a competition and no one is the winner in other words.

MamaZ · #37 30th June 2008, 09:38 AM

All who are born again are vessels of Gods Spirit. The living not the dead for the dead are at home with Christ if they indeed had the Spirit of Christ in them. All that is left of them are their decaying flesh and bones to which Will be raised incorruptable.

Canaan-84 · #38 30th June 2008, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by MamaZ

All who are born again are vessels of Gods Spirit. The living not the dead for the dead are at home with Christ if they indeed had the Spirit of Christ in them. All that is left of them are their decaying flesh and bones to which Will be raised incorruptable.

Why ignore the passages that show relics in the Bible cured people? Also, like it's been mentioned before, people believe God works through them not that the relic itself or the saint itself has the power.

MamaZ · #39 1st July 2008, 05:19 AM

Depends on where your faith is. Mine isn't in kissing and upholding dead things.

Meshavrischika · #40 1st July 2008, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Canaan-84

Why ignore the passages that show relics in the Bible cured people? Also, like it's been mentioned before, people believe God works through them not that the relic itself or the saint itself has the power.

Right. I think that our differences here are just personal differences in the way our faith works (based on our personality and who we are). I think this is perfectly legitimate. It's like being attracted to a different style of preaching/teaching. Sure, I may not like the same delivery of the message as you do, but it's the MESSAGE that counts.