MJ staff and member meeting June 22-July 7

Originally Posted by christianmomof3

hi, i will check in and say hello here. i am not sure what the purpose of this thread is. i usually try to stay out of all of the politics and rule making here

thats ok we are not here to make rules, but maybe explain some, or and this is my hope give assurances that some "unspoken rule" does not exist in MJ

and i honestly have no idea what is going on with all the drama and goodbye threads in the mj forum,

me too

but I do hope that ya'll work things out and i will pray for that.
i personally feel that making more rules will not solve things.

and we arent doing that, except to say if something is not clarified well enough I have CCed Synger to help word things better

i also think that micro-dividing and subdividing into a kabillion more subforums will not solve things.

We are not planning on doing that either but I must say that the new subforum was a good move on your (collective) part IMO, and would like to know how you all came up with that, and how you like it so far (staff included, how do you all like the changes)?

I think that defining who can and who cannot post will not solve things.

This is true to a point, and I am glad you brought this up as I would like our Advisors also to post an explanation for why we have some restrictions in the CA (Congregational Area), that all the forums are subject to in this area....(I will explain too but please jump in to confirm, add to, and even correct me if I am wrong)

The CA is designed to be a safe haven for which ever group(Denomination or Faith Based) we have there.....It does not restrict who can post there and never will.....BUT it does have restrictions on what can be posted in threads there....

In order to be a safe haven it needs to restrict those outside its group to fellowship posts (if your not familiar with that term let me know and I will explain, but I think we all have been here long enough to know what that means) so in a sence we DO restrict content of some over others..... And being that this area is a safe haven to the Denoms and Faith groups of Yeshua/Jesus, we also hold over ALL the groups the restriction to posts of a Trinitarian nature.....Do we restrict people who do not accept creeds or the Trinity? NO not at all and please staff add your consensus to this statement to drive it home for all here....We do not All are free to post in these forums, only the subject is restricted

Now the MJ forum is unique in that we have a wide variety of people to bring in to this area who normally wouldnt "look" like they belong as full members here..I will focus on two groups, but we all know in MJ there are way more....

We have Non MJ Jews who are full members minus the fact that they are NOT believers in the Messiah Yeshua/Jesus(a total contradiction yet here we are) and we have Non Trinitarians who by the set up and definitions of the area would not be a full members either (yet they are) Why are they full CA members then, and not subject to ONLY fellowship posts as the non members are? Because in everything else they are apart of this MJ body, completely capable of discussing, and teaching, and debating scriptures here with us, yet with the burden of remembering, and having self restraint, in those areas where they do not believe as the rest of us

These are the only restriction placed on our NonTrin Members and our Non MJ Members....restraint

I think that monitoring the topics themselves - such as not allowing anti-semitism or proselytising or whatever is more likely to be effective.

And this is what we do, nothing more...please if there are any questions, comments or worries lets hear them now, as I hope and pray this is settled for us...We dont restrict people in the CA area, we restrict post content or as CMO3 said topics

since i don't really know or understand what is going on here, my input may be way off base and if it is, i appologise.

your doing great, all of you are

i honestly have no idea why people who are not Christian would even have any desire to be on a Christian message board.
it appears that the Jewish members here who are not messianic are all converts and used to be messianic and that they are here for fellowship.
if so, that is ok.
i suggested, and no one seemed to like the idea, that a Jewish sub forum be made under non-christian religion for the Jewish non-messianic members to fellowship if they wish to do that. I am not sure what the problem with that would have been.

Well it looks like that was accomplished sort of by you all(collectively) anyway....

I also do think that non-trinitarian issues belong in the non-trin area.

And the new forum was for this purpose as well....

But, not all messianic issues are non-trinitarian and i think some members were offended to find the whole forum stuck in the non-trin area.

anyway, i may be totally off the topic so forgive me if i am.
ya'll have my prayers.

I dont follow you there.... the whole forum wasnt moved to the UT.... We simply added forums/subforums over there to solve the topic problems we couldnt solve in the CA area...that is all but please expand on what you mean, so we can clear the air

__________________

Howdy, checking in. :-)

I actually have no idea what all the fuss has been about. There are several different stripes of people who frequent MJ, and my understanding is that the staff wanted to provide "safe zones" where each stripe could not feel bashed on.

People of each stripe have complained that they felt assaulted at different times, so the staff has provided places to not be assaulted as well as a place to assault and be assaulted .......er, I mean, to debate. i.e. the Debate Subforum.

There is a difference between "division" and sensible organization. The prior arrangement was one big mishmosh of strife, and it was that disorder that created division.

I 'magine that the odd person or two who enjoys strife free-for-alls might be mourning about the loss of the free-for-all.....but what we *should want is reasonable civility & peace.

I really think the staff has done a great job. They're incredibly patient people.

__________________

I'm an early poster today as I am out tonight - but is there an amnesty on THIS thread so that folk can speak freely about those things that are thought to be/felt to be problems?

Moaning at people about their views or who are not really happy with things doesn't really help - it just creates more and bigger problems.

"Good morning, and in case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!"

I think it might be a good idea for the MJ and MW folks to politely, gently and as non-accusatory, non-inflammatory and as openly as possibly post questions about those things about which they are confused, unclear or have heard that have been presented as rumor or fact from various quarters.... and give the Staff a non-threatening opportunity to respond, investigate and respond....

what'd'ya' say??

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This is a CF discussion group for Messianic Believers to discuss and share and examine their journey toward Torah Observance.


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"A man who has nothing which he cares more about than he does his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance at being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

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Originally Posted by HaReb

I'm an early poster today as I am out tonight - but is there an amnesty on THIS thread so that folk can speak freely about those things that are thought to be/felt to be problems?

Moaning at people about their views or who are not really happy with things doesn't really help - it just creates more and bigger problems.

We will try to answer any questions you bring up and dont worry about a little moaning thats fine here too just try(everyone) to help us all move toward the goal of unity and peace is all I ask

__________________

I've never quite been sure what the fuss was over discussing politely things anywhere in the forum. To me the problem is fear and arrogance and misunderstanding. Those trying to come to understand other views seem to be thwarted constantly by the prejudice of misinformation and accusation.

The subdivisions to me were created to keep the fearful from being afraid and heavy handed on the report buttons.

JMO

What we have now is a subdivided MJ topical listing. We can't please everyone, but the confusions can be cleared up I hope in this thread over why this is what we are trying to do now to resolve some issues.

I don't think we need a Judaism forum in NC. I think we should allow someone to defend their religion anywhere in Christian forums. I think anywhere they are asked to give account of their beliefs they should be able to give account. I don't believe any section should be set up as a private misinformation session aired publically. It is really difficult not to give a complete background in answering questions. The risk is that in answering an honest or possibly ignorant question, someone will become fearful that the young will be swade, and then moderators have to decide... where the line applies to the explainations and it is difficult to make these decisions.

I know moderators in Unorthodox are from many different views and depending on whom you see moderating that night decisions can be varied quite a bit. This may leave confusion, but if we go second guessing and opening up every report with debatable decisions moderating would take literally forever. We deal with individuals that are in process and are not perfect.

There seems to be a large communication gap for those moderators not familiar with the unorthodox views. This can add confusion. I hope members of Messianic Way subforum will be understanding as we bring other moderators up to speed.

As it is I wish we had more in MJ to keep non members up to speed, but I've talked with a couple of really nice people open to comments.

Moderators have had tons of transition for the last six months leaving them just as frustrated as members. Chaos is not a good place.

Bananna

__________________
The Tongue, The Pen, and the sword have some things in common
With them we give life or death, blessings or curses.
Choose life. - A. Blackwell


Since the ultimate goal is to actively love one another in the name of our God, we may disagree on doctrines, but we all agree the poor need feeding, we all agree the sick should be tended to, the prisoners visited and the naked clothed.

When we involve ourselves in living out God's love - love in action, knits us together as one body. It's like a little bit of heaven on earth. - A. Blackwell

checking in.

I see a lot of discussion, but not of real issues. Our problems were, we (the rabbinic Jews here) were being bashed for defending ourselves from inflamatory posts. We were all given the impression several times that we were not allowed to post anything in the MJ forum except for the words "Jc is the man." Right now, in the new forum, we are being called a cult. This is hardly the first time such behavior has cropped up--in either place. We were also being bashed for answering questions directly asked of us.

The reason we continued posting for so long was because we had people here who we considered to be good friends and this was our way of connecting with them. Unfortunately many of those same "friends" have also strayed down the path of rabid anti-semitism.

I don't know what's going to happen with this, and I hope its a positive change, but I too doupt that one week will be anywhere near enough time to mend these fences. There has simply been too much damage. How are we to believe that we are being respected as individuals when we are told very different things in nearly every post, and more often than not by mods as well.

Hope I haven't offended anyone.

Yochanan

I got interrupted in my writing this up so I apologize for being behind the discussion at this point... I hope this is not too off-topic.
? that's it? I didn't hear anything on the forum so... I guess... hm. I misunderstood the purpose of this thread, then -- I thought this was an open-to-all-in (the MJ forum) discussion thread where some real issues could be addressed, some concerns raised and heard, and some barriers perhaps broken down. Did this invitation go out to all of the Jews, MJs and non-trin mess. who frequent the MJ forum, or only to people deemed to be problem-causers and/or to be clearly misunderstanding something or other about the forum?

Sure, that sounds great, actually. I was afraid all discussion would be forced to be done within these few days and then this thread closed or poofed and *blam!* that's the end of that/discussion over. But then, I assumed more was going to be on the table, and apparently I was incorrect. So... maybe a week is all anyone would need.

I guess... who knows who all was invited? I think all of the Jews, MJs et al who really frequent (or have) the MJ forum, in the last couple of months at least, should be here.

On the side, I have to say, I am not sure where folks are getting the idea that Messianic Jews can't post on the MJ forum suddenly -- that's an odd notion.

Beyond that... I do feel that the MJ forum has become an utterly unwelcome forum to rabbinical Jews, and people sense that. Regardless whether staff thinks that is the case, that is indeed most people's *perception* -- not only rabbinical Jews -- and has nothing to do IMHO with any "gossip" written on the MD forum. It DOES have to do with the real things people have seen played out on that forum. It is inhospitable there for many reasons but especially when sometimes it seems people are just looking for reasons to suspect the Jews of anything untoward at all (neshamot anyone?) and rushing to report. Also when warnings are given out for every little breath that appears to be talking about "staff action" and the like. I think there is a vast difference between discussing the rules, and discussing an individual, particular situation/mod action or sanctioning. And if people can't address general moderator protocol or call general behaviors and ideas into question without having the threat of sanctioning/warning/RVs held over their heads, it does nothing but put the staff above any member-accountability (which is crucial to an ethical staff on any board), and it leaves members feeling they have no say over their forum and its handling or rules at all because discussing them publicly or having ANY issue with them at all and stating it is considered under the lump-accusation of "discussing moderator actions", etc. The general behavior or some people who read and/or post on that forum seems to very heavily single out and look for any sort of offense on the part of non-messianic Jews, and non-trinitarian messianics perhaps as well, and the willingness of staff to moderate constantly (sorry -- heavy-handedly IMO) has all worked together and largely made the forum into an inhospitable place -- again, in my opinion.

But, if we are speaking personally I believe I am well-aware personally of what is allowed and is not, on the MJ forum.

*Messianics -- Jews and Gentiles -- are utterly and completely allowed to post (without being inflammatory, etc., of course) and to argue and debate and enjoy a safe haven on the MJ forum.

*Non-trins are allowed to do all of the above and post anything and everything as they will *except* any argument that would be viewed as anti-trinitarianism.

do I have those correct?

*Non-messianic Jews seem to me to have pretty much fellowship-only status and it is quite clear there are at least individual efforts to FIND something in our every-other post as breaking one rule or another, and the walking on egg-shells is old and got older every day. If we aren't ever so careful to word questions and answers perfectly, the non-messianics have been reported left and right for anything from offering a rabbinic theological position with very logical common objections to the messianic position ("anti-missionizing efforts") to a dozen other things. And it WAS made very clear to us that we are not allowed to answer questions on Rabbinic Judaism as long as it is not allowing for or even directly IN context of Jsus as the messiah. Not being able to even state our own position except in the very most tight-rope walking manner, makes it all but impossible to share anything beyond trying to hold a line of truth in regard to the assertions MJ members make, and clarify where we can. Now that we have the UT area though for the non-trins, Rabbinic Jews and any MJ/MG/MBs who wish to come, I don't see this as an issue any longer so...

shooo I am really behind the discussion now, it took me three times to post this. Sorry for any repeating others if I have done so, etc.

__________________
"For my Torah observant gentile friends: In Tractate Avoda Zara 3b, our sages tell us of the END OF DAYS. 2,000 years ago our rabbis explained that near the end of days many non-Jews will start keeping commandments like Jews. They will even call themselves part of the nation of Israel. BUT, when things get tough and the world turns on Israel-they cast off of the commandments and join the world against Israel. Hmm.." Jeremy Gimpel

Psalm 103
17. But the Lord's kindness is from everlasting to everlasting, and His charity to sons of sons. 18 To those who keep His covenant and to those who remember His commandments to perform them.

Is He true to His Word? He's either faithful and true to those who fear and obey Him, or you know what you call Him.

Deut. 30

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“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
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“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
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“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
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“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.


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“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
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in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
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“But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
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I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
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“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
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by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Don't know if that is correct or not. Say what?

Why would we not be allowed to discuss Rabbinic Judaism or even ask questions, when it comes up in the discussion?

I suppose there is always PMs if one is not sure if the posting is allowed. As long as questions and answers are polite.

__________________
The Tongue, The Pen, and the sword have some things in common
With them we give life or death, blessings or curses.
Choose life. - A. Blackwell


Since the ultimate goal is to actively love one another in the name of our God, we may disagree on doctrines, but we all agree the poor need feeding, we all agree the sick should be tended to, the prisoners visited and the naked clothed.

When we involve ourselves in living out God's love - love in action, knits us together as one body. It's like a little bit of heaven on earth. - A. Blackwell

Did we not have several posts where CM and Tishri wrote that it was all about the "intention" and phrasing of a Jewish member's posts, and all answers have to be messianic-positive/messianic endorsing or non-threatening somehow (I know, I am really probably paraphrasing a lot, but this was the gist) and not non-messianic Judaism-positive/"promoting" comments? There is no free ability remotely for Jews to state their beliefs at all in a normative-Judaism manner, which is (and it was told to us this is so) nothing more than "Judaism-promoting" or specifically "anti-missionizing" -- whether it is a hard and fast, well-defined rule or it ends up simply being in effect and caused staff to have knee-jerk reactions, or whatever. In fact CM said that if Jews ever brought up scripture or arguments commonly used by some "anti-missionaries" somewhere, then that makes the poster automatically anti-missionaries/proselytizing, etc, as well. Imagine my surprise, having never been exposed to such arguments (I wasn't until very recently when I went in search of some sites), to find that the same questions and verses I had wanted to ask about for so long, when mentioned by others on the forum in the recent past, resulted in those people being accused of being "anti-missionaries" because they used the same scriptures and pondered the same issues as those "anti-missionaries" -- and I -- had seen.

This is why thread after thread began to be moved first to the debate section, and later to the UT section -- over and over, messianic posters would post a very provocative thread, such as the OP in this one:
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7237100

and the threads were moved out of the MJ area so the Jewish members could answer... the Jewish posters knew that there was no free answering a thread in the MJ forum asking *about* us, without being accused of proselytizing (which happened over and over for a while). Seems to me I saw a good number of people's posts being accused of "promoting Judaism"...

? am I wrong?

__________________
"For my Torah observant gentile friends: In Tractate Avoda Zara 3b, our sages tell us of the END OF DAYS. 2,000 years ago our rabbis explained that near the end of days many non-Jews will start keeping commandments like Jews. They will even call themselves part of the nation of Israel. BUT, when things get tough and the world turns on Israel-they cast off of the commandments and join the world against Israel. Hmm.." Jeremy Gimpel

Psalm 103
17. But the Lord's kindness is from everlasting to everlasting, and His charity to sons of sons. 18 To those who keep His covenant and to those who remember His commandments to perform them.

Is He true to His Word? He's either faithful and true to those who fear and obey Him, or you know what you call Him.

Deut. 30

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“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
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“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.


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“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
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in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
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I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
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“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
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by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”