| Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums. |
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26th June 2008, 06:17 AM
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Reps: 273,058,856,457,603,328 (power: 273,058,856,457,625) | | Originally Posted by no1nose  Which naturally leads to this sort of thinking: [Eugenics]
No, it doesn't: eugenics is the belief that some human races are superior to others, which is fallacious. Natural selection is simply selection based upon those who just so happen to survive long enough to reproduce. Those with beneficial mutations are more likely to reproduce, so novel beneficial mutations become the norm in the long run. This is the theory of evolution and leads directly to the theory of common descent.
Eugenics, however, replaces natural selection with artificial selection, and is the mass extinction of entire races, even though there is no 'fitter' or 'superior' race: we are all as good at reproducing as each other. That is why eugenics is fundamentally flawed. Originally Posted by no1nose Evolution is about the survival of the fittest.
Christianity is about the redemption of the unfit.
Strawman and equivocation. "Survival of the fittest" is an inaccurate caricature, and the "fittest" and "unfit" do not refer to the same thing (the former best refers to genes that are more likely to be proliferated, the latter to humans in need of spiritual salvation). Originally Posted by no1nose While abuses occur within the Christian Church its core belief system does not support them. The same cannot be said for The Theory of Evolution whose core belief system treats as natural the extinction of the “unfit”.
If it occurs by natural means, yes. Otherwise one can hardly call NATURAL the extinction of a species by NATURAL selection. Originally Posted by no1nose These may be anyone who is politically out of favor as were the Jews in Germany where Hitler used “evolutionary” rhetoric to plead his cause.
Even though you're wrong, there's a very important question here: so what? The truth of common descent doesn't depend on how good said truth makes us feel. Astronomy is a humbling science, but it isn't any less true because of it. We may want to be the centre of the universe, we may want to be ultimately unrelated to the other animals, but reality rarely bends to the wishes of the masses: it is what it is, regardless of the consequences to humanity.
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26th June 2008, 06:29 AM
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Reps: 9,775,672,734,033,784 (power: 9,775,672,734,041) | | Originally Posted by no1nose Which naturally leads to this sort of thinking:
No, it doesn't. If it did lead to that kind of thinking, why is it that there have been genocides prior to Darwin? Remember Martin Luther? His anti-Semitic speeches where used by the Nazi party to gain supporters in Germany. The Holocaust was the result of half a millennium of racism in Europe. Evolution is about the survival of the fittest.
Christianity is about the redemption of the unfit.
Really now. How is it that Christianity is going to save an organism with a genetic disorder? While abuses occur within the Christian Church its core belief system does not support them. The same cannot be said for The Theory of Evolution whose core belief system treats as natural the extinction of the “unfit”. These may be anyone who is politically out of favor as were the Jews in Germany where Hitler used “evolutionary” rhetoric to plead his cause.
Once again. Hitler did not use evolution to gain supporters; he used the writings of Martin Luther. |
26th June 2008, 11:22 AM
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Reps: 12,567,898,174,147,644 (power: 12,567,898,174,166) | | Originally Posted by no1nose I would say the this is adaption and not evolution. This sounds like survival of the fittest.
How one labels a process doesn't change the process. Darwin called it 'natural selection'. Spencer called it 'survival of the fittest'. But there is no way to describe how the fit survive without invoking natural selection as the means by which the fit survive.
So they are the same thing.
Likewise with adaptation and evolution. Evolution is the means by which adaptation happens. Try to describe the process of adaptation without invoking the mechanisms of evolution. You can't do it. They are the same process. Different names for the same thing don't make it a different thing.
Sometimes we say "taxi" sometimes we say "cab" and in both cases we mean a "taxicab" (the original term). It's the same thing. Same with adaptation and evolution. Same with natural selection and survival of the fittest.
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26th June 2008, 11:31 AM
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Reps: 1,141,313,842 (power: 1,141,319) | | Originally Posted by no1nose Which naturally leads to this sort of thinking:
Evolution is about the survival of the fittest.
Christianity is about the redemption of the unfit.
While abuses occur within the Christian Church its core belief system does not support them. The same cannot be said for The Theory of Evolution whose core belief system treats as natural the extinction of the “unfit”. These may be anyone who is politically out of favor as were the Jews in Germany where Hitler used “evolutionary” rhetoric to plead his cause.
You're repeating yourself. It was a rediculous analogy the first time you said it, and it's still a rediculous analogy now.
Once again, you're showing that you're not here for a discussion... you're just here to keep copy/pasting the same things over and over. Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child I didn't say it was a good argument or an informed argument, just a novel argument.
Fair enough... although I tend to think an "argument" of any type requires actual substance... this guy has nothing of the sort. |
26th June 2008, 03:50 PM
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Reps: 1,012 (power: 8) | | Once again. Hitler did not use evolution to gain supporters; he used the writings of Martin Luther.
Hitler used what ever he could. Darwin's idea that evolution means "the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life" eventually led to Nazism and the Jewish holocaust - even though Darwin himself would have been appalled at the thought."19 Sir Arthur Keith wrote: "The leader of Germany is an evolutionist, not only in theory, but, as millions know to their cost, in the rigor of its practice. For him, the 'national front' of Europe is also the 'evolutionary front;' he regards himself, and is regarded, as the incarnation of the will of Germany, the purpose of that will being to guide the evolutionary destiny of its people."59 and "Christianity makes no distinction of race or of color; it seeks to break down all racial barriers. In this respect the hand of Christianity is against that of Nature, for are not the races of mankind the evolutionary harvest which Nature has toiled through long ages to produce?"19 In Mein Kampf, Hitler used the German word for evolution (Entwicklung) many times, citing "lower human types." He criticized the Jews for bringing "Negroes into the Rhineland" with the aim of "ruining the white race by the necessarily resulting ization." He spoke of "Monstrosities halfway between man and ape" and lamented the fact of Christians going to "Central Africa" to set up "Negro missions," resulting in the turning of "healthy . . . human beings into a rotten brood of s." In his chapter entitled "Nation and Race," he said, "The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable." A few pages later, he said, "Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live."59 The success in breeding cattle, dogs and other animals with certain desired characteristics gave empirical support to the concept of racial breeding as advocated by eugenicists and later Hitler and others.19 Hitler exterminated over 273,000 people even before the Holocaust! |
26th June 2008, 04:09 PM
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26th June 2008, 06:13 PM
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Reps: 1,012 (power: 8) | | When you copy and paste from somewhere, please cite your source. http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/hit.htm
Just google hitler evolution.
Best to read some of Hitler's writings and speeches for yourself. |
26th June 2008, 07:06 PM
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Reps: 18,889,155,825,852,136 (power: 18,889,155,825,864) | | | My goodness. Are people still trying to blame evolution for the Holocaust? Hitler twisted all sorts of teachings to justify his actions, including Christianity. And I don't see anyone here trying to vilify Christianity for it.
Really, folks. Move on.
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"There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well." -- creation scientist Dr. Todd Wood |
26th June 2008, 07:16 PM
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By saying this, you have voided your entire argument. You have conformend that the Holocaust was not the inevitable outcome of natural selection and that external sources where required for Hitler to gain supporters. Fail!
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26th June 2008, 10:45 PM
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It would clear things up if you could explain a bit more. How and where did he twist the Theory of Evolution? | | |
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