Traditionalists wait for Vatican ruling

Secundulus · #1 5th June 2008, 03:14 PM

The Church of England Newspaper Friday June 6, 2008

Traditionalists wait for Vatican ruling

AN ANNOUNCEMENT on the Vatican’srelationship with the TraditionalAnglican Communion (TAC)may be made following the July 16-Aug 3 Lambeth Conference,sources in Rome tell The Church of England Newspaper.

Leaders of TAC, home to over 400,000 Anglo-Catholics who have left the Episcopal and Anglican churches over the past thirty years, have been in talks with the Vatican over creating an Anglican-rite enclave under the authority of the Bishop of Rome.

While the curia under Pope John Paul II had opposed attempts to bring Anglicans en masse into the Roman Catholic fold, under Benedict XVI the Vatican appears to have adopted a different line. Anglicans wishing to be received into the Catholic Church are welcome to do so, as individuals, rather than as part of a larger ecclesial body. The talks between TAC and Vatican, however, have focused on allowing whole groups to enter the Catholic Church while maintaining their own orders and liturgy.

The National Catholic Register reported that “discussions at theVatican on devising a possible structure for [TAC] to come into communion with Rome are understood to be nearing completion.” It added that during their May 5 meeting, Archbishop Rowan Williams asked Benedict that “any potential announcement be delayed until after the Lambeth Conference.”

However, a spokesman for Dr Williams told CEN the report was untrue. The TAC issue “didn’t come up with the Pope,” a press spokesman for the Archbishop said.

The Rt Rev David Moyer, former president of Forward in Faith USA and a Bishop in TAC, also declined to comment on the negotiations with Rome, stating only that “We in the TAC are on our knees for something positive to happen.We remain very hopeful.”

The Bishop of Fort Worth, the Rt Rev Jack Iker —- who is currently in Rome on study leave —- told The Church of England Newspaper “conversations with TAC — and others—have taken place at high levels in the Vatican and that it is thought that the Pope is sympathetic to the dilemma of traditionalists in the Anglican way.”

However, no formal dialogue exists between TAC and the Congregation for Promoting Christian Unity —- the Vatican agency tasked with ecumenical relations.

Speculation on a possible Anglican enclave within the Catholic Church comes amidst a tightening of views on women bishops within the Church of England. One traditionalist leader speculated that the House of Bishops’ decision to go ahead with women bishops without providing safeguards for those opposed, may have been predicated on the calculation that the Catholic Church would resolve the women clergy issue for the Church of England.

JasonV · #2 11th June 2008, 08:35 PM

If the TAC want to be Roman Catholic, they basically cease to be Anglican. So what's the point?

Secundulus · #3 11th June 2008, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by JasonV

If the TAC want to be Roman Catholic, they basically cease to be Anglican. So what's the point?

This is only true if one's view is that the Anglican Church began in 1529.

If one view's the Anglican Church as having existed since the first century and if an agreement is reached permitting the Anglican identity to remain then the point is the unity of the Body of Christ.

Also, this is not something new. Canterbury has been pursuing the same thing for nearly 100 years.

Albion · #4 15th June 2008, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Secundulus

This is only true if one's view is that the Anglican Church began in 1529.

If one view's the Anglican Church as having existed since the first century and if an agreement is reached permitting the Anglican identity to remain then the point is the unity of the Body of Christ.

Also, this is not something new. Canterbury has been pursuing the same thing for nearly 100 years.

But IMO Jason's point is basically sound. If there is not uniate status (which is NOT in the cards), then claiming to have retained something distinctively "Anglican" is rendered almost meaningless.

Oh yes, you can plant English gardens on the grounds and tend to sing more English hymns than the Mexican parish across town which has mariachi masses and venerates Our Lady of Guadalupe more than the Irish Catholic parish does, but that's about all this amounts to. You'll be Roman Catholic in every way that matters. If that's so, you might as well just be Roman Catholics of British descent not unlike Catholics in the UK. I apologize if this seems condescending or sneering, although it isn't meant that way, but really...? What that is Anglican do you see as being retained?

Secundulus · #5 15th June 2008, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Albion

But IMO Jason's point is basically sound. If there is not uniate status (which is NOT in the cards), then claiming to have retained something distinctively "Anglican" is rendered almost meaningless.

Oh yes, you can plant English gardens on the grounds and tend to sing more English hymns than the Mexican parish across town which has mariachi masses and venerates Our Lady of Guadalupe more than the Irish Catholic parish does, but that's about all this amounts to. You'll be Roman Catholic in every way that matters. If that's so, you might as well just be Roman Catholics of British descent not unlike Catholics in the UK. I apologize if this seems condescending or sneering, although it isn't meant that way, but really...? What that is Anglican do you see as being retained?

Its hard to say until we find out what the decision is. Lots of people say they know what is going to happen, but I really question their source, or are they just assuming. We may get what we want and retain Anglicanism or we may be offered something less. We may be offered something that is unacceptable to the majority. We have to wait and see.

Albion · #6 15th June 2008, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Secundulus

Its hard to say until we find out what the decision is. Lots of people say they know what is going to happen, but I really question their source, or are they just assuming. We may get what we want and retain Anglicanism or we may be offered something less. We may be offered something that is unacceptable to the majority. We have to wait and see.

Very true. The Vatican will decide all issues and TAC can only wait. But my understanding is that the TAC bishops, the representatives of TAC who made the appeal to Rome, asked to join on whatever terms the Vatican wants. Is it your feeling that TAC will split if the terms are not especially appealing? I would think that some provinces and dioceses or parishes would not go along, no matter what the terms turn out to be.

I guess when I asked the question, I was wondering about your own "bottom line."

longhair75 · #7 15th June 2008, 02:43 PM

Friend Secundulus,

If reunification with Rome is what you seek, I wish you and the rest of my Anglican brothers and sisters in the TAC success. What I think you will find is that, in order to achieve reunification with Rome, you will be required to submit to Papal authority and essentially just convert to Roman Catholicism.

My prayers are with you.

Secundulus · #8 15th June 2008, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Albion

Very true. The Vatican will decide all issues and TAC can only wait. But my understanding is that the TAC bishops, the representatives of TAC who made the appeal to Rome, asked to join on whatever terms the Vatican wants. Is it your feeling that TAC will split if the terms are not especially appealing? I would think that some provinces and dioceses or parishes would not go along, no matter what the terms turn out to be.

I guess when I asked the question, I was wondering about your own "bottom line."

The TAC send a long Document to Rome that spelled out what the Bishops desired. I have never actually seen this document and do not know for a fact what it contains. I have read that it will be released publicly following an announcement by the Vatican.

I believe that while the document spelled out the TAC's desires, it made no demands and asked for the Vatican's terms in response. I believe that the document essentially asked that we retain our identity, customs, and structure, and only reestablish sacramental communion.

Anyone's best guess is that following an announcement, we will lose some parishes but that we would gain some others from other continuing Churches and maybe from the Anglican Communion that are just waiting to see what happens. There are many people who don't want to make any moves now based upon a hypothetical future.

As for me, I really haven't put too much thought into what I'll do if a really unpalatable decision comes down. I am optimistic that this Pope will offer something reasonable as a model for other ongoing efforts he has to reunify Christendom. However, I am realistic enough to know that I might be totally wrong about this. I have considered the thought that if the Vatican simply gives us the uncharitable response to surrender everything or be gone that others might be right about some of the things they say about Rome and that this might not be God's will at present.

Also, in an unexpected move, I got appointed Senior Warden two weeks ago and am fully engaged in trying to fix a few immediate problems. Additionally, the Bishop set me apart as a subdeacon at the same time so my focus has changed a bit from what is personally best for me to what is corporately best for the parish.

If in the end we are offered something that includes keeping our married Anglican Priesthood, keeping our current Missal and 1928 PB, and keeping our current Bishops, I expect our parish will fall in on the decision.

If we are asked to abandon the PB then I expect most of the people will rebel. People here in the SE are extremely loyal to the PB. If the status of the Bishops change, then I'm not sure what will happen. It probably depends on what the decision is and what the Bishops say in response.

Honestly, there remains a whole lot of anti-Roman sentiment among many people (especially here in the Southern Baptist stronghold of Georgia). If too much change is immediately demanded then this will not have a good ending.

Albion · #9 15th June 2008, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Secundulus

The TAC send a long Document to Rome that spelled out what the Bishops desired. I have never actually seen this document and do not know for a fact what it contains. I have read that it will be released publicly following an announcement by the Vatican.

I believe that while the document spelled out the TAC's desires, it made no demands and asked for the Vatican's terms in response. I believe that the document essentially asked that we retain our identity, customs, and structure, and only reestablish sacramental communion.

Anyone's best guess is that following an announcement, we will lose some parishes but that we would gain some others from other continuing Churches and maybe from the Anglican Communion that are just waiting to see what happens. There are many people who don't want to make any moves now based upon a hypothetical future.

As for me, I really haven't put too much thought into what I'll do if a really unpalatable decision comes down. I am optimistic that this Pope will offer something reasonable as a model for other ongoing efforts he has to reunify Christendom. However, I am realistic enough to know that I might be totally wrong about this. I have considered the thought that if the Vatican simply gives us the uncharitable response to surrender everything or be gone that others might be right about some of the things they say about Rome and that this might not be God's will at present.

Also, in an unexpected move, I got appointed Senior Warden two weeks ago and am fully engaged in trying to fix a few immediate problems. Additionally, the Bishop set me apart as a subdeacon at the same time so my focus has changed a bit from what is personally best for me to what is corporately best for the parish.

If in the end we are offered something that includes keeping our married Anglican Priesthood, keeping our current Missal and 1928 PB, and keeping our current Bishops, I expect our parish will fall in on the decision.

If we are asked to abandon the PB then I expect most of the people will rebel. People here in the SE are extremely loyal to the PB. If the status of the Bishops change, then I'm not sure what will happen. It probably depends on what the decision is and what the Bishops say in response.

Honestly, there remains a whole lot of anti-Roman sentiment among many people (especially here in the Southern Baptist stronghold of Georgia). If too much change is immediately demanded then this will not have a good ending.

Thanks. A lot of good points made there. My own guess is that if the reply is positive, more or less, it will be along the lines of the Anglican Use provision and might even be exactly that. Although no one really knows, my prediction is that Rome will require reordination (which might be accepted without much hesitation), quite possibly will approve of married priests and bishops, but absolutely will NOT allow the 1928 BCP. You'd get the Anglican Use version that "corrects" what Rome cannot accept in the BCP's wording--or a version close to that one.

For your sake, I'm glad that the speculation is strong that the Vatican will decide this summer, which is pretty fast as Rome operates. And the fact that she will have representatives at Lambeth will work to your advantage, I'd think, since nothing good from Rome's POV will come out of that meeting.

IgnatiusOfAntioch · #10 24th June 2008, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by longhair75

Friend Secundulus,

If reunification with Rome is what you seek, I wish you and the rest of my Anglican brothers and sisters in the TAC success. What I think you will find is that, in order to achieve reunification with Rome, you will be required to submit to Papal authority and essentially just convert to Roman Catholicism.

My prayers are with you.

Hi brother LH. I'm curious why you would think that when there are already Anglican use Catholic parishes. Did you not know about that?