What is wrong with this forum site? Anyone?

IamRedeemed · #71 28th May 2008, 11:18 PM

That is absolutely 100% correct. There is a big difference between a struggle with a stronghold
and willfully sinning and promoting sin and sinful lifestyles, refusing to acknowledge that the
sin is in fact sin and complete denial of the desire of Christ to heal and loathing/condemnation
of those who have been delivered and trading the Truth of God's Word for lies that fit those
agendas. And THAT my brother, is EXACTLY what we are dealing with in there by those who claim
to come in the name of Jesus. There are even some who deny the resurrection of Christ and they
also claim they are "Christians" while promoting all of that.

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

Again, there is a marked difference in "persistence" in sin and "willfully sinning." Persistence is the stronghold, the sin we cannot seem to beat despite our desire to stop going there and repeating the sin, and the confession and repentance afterwards. Addictions, sexual behavior, etc.

Willfully sinning is not caring whether you commit the sin, refusing to acknowledge the sin is in fact sin, refusing to allow Christ to heal. Though many who practice homosexual behavior mouth words similar to this, their guilt, anger and depression speak volumes about their conviction that this is the case. They want to change, but they can't. Willful sin is not a stronghold, it is outright rebellion, and a rebellious spirit does not know God. Strongholds, however, are something every Christian has or has had, to greater or lesser degrees.

No sin is unforgivable, including homosexual behavior. The only sin unforgivable is rejecting Christ. Christians sin inadvertently, they sin with knowledge of their sin, they sin from living in a stronghold. Sometimes they even sin rebelliously. None of these things separates us from God's love, forgiveness and most importantly, from His salvation. Willful sin, however, speaks directly to the state of the heart, most likely saying "This person is not saved." It is difficult to tell the difference among these sinful motivations at times, and that's why it isn't up to us to determine what that motivation is, but is left in the hands of Christ.

IisJustMe · #72 29th May 2008, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by IamRedeemed

That is absolutely 100% correct. There is a big difference between a struggle with a stronghold
and willfully sinning and promoting sin and sinful lifestyles, refusing to acknowledge that the
sin is in fact sin and complete denial of the desire of Christ to heal and loathing/condemnation
of those who have been delivered and trading the Truth of God's Word for lies that fit those
agendas. And THAT my brother, is EXACTLY what we are dealing with in there by those who claim
to come in the name of Jesus. There are even some who deny the resurrection of Christ and they
also claim they are "Christians" while promoting all of that.

Not necessarily. There are far more (I believe) who are living in the stronghold rather than willfully and deliberately denying the word of God. The latter, however, are far more vocal than the others. It is as I said, the ones suffering with guilt, depression and anxiety are the ones living in the stronghold. They may mouth the same words as the deniers, but they are not actually denying God's word so much as they are trying to convince themselves they are "OK." But their guilt is their conviction that they are wrong and they somewhere inside themselves want to break the sin cycle. They won't say those words outloud, but that is where they are, regardless.

Nadiine · #73 29th May 2008, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

Not necessarily. There are far more (I believe) who are living in the stronghold rather than willfully and deliberately denying the word of God. The latter, however, are far more vocal than the others. It is as I said, the ones suffering with guilt, depression and anxiety are the ones living in the stronghold. They may mouth the same words as the deniers, but they are not actually denying God's word so much as they are trying to convince themselves they are "OK." But their guilt is their conviction that they are wrong and they somewhere inside themselves want to break the sin cycle. They won't say those words outloud, but that is where they are, regardless.

Well that poses a problem... how did anyone in the bible or churches decide who a heretic or wolf was if they're most likely just in strongholds & denial rather than heretics??
Technically, we can't say heretics exist - they might just be mouthing off in rebellion for awhile.

Paul specifically notes some who had abandoned the faith, who were wolves working from within the church, and who's faith was "shipwrecked".
Apostates.
So.... we have a fruit inspection problem when we see false teachings spewed... to go further, how do we even point at a Mormon or JW who's preaching a false gospel to say they're not of God when they actually mite just be Christians in denial or rebellion?

I think Isaiah & John were correct when they said if they do not speak this truth, then they have no light in them.

The doctrines these people spew isn't Christian. Maybe they aren't saved, but God's working on them with guilt. (that's not to say it's my job to decide salvation of each person I speak with here) lol
But as a sheep, I'm called to know how to spot a wolf & false teacher by their FRUIT....
am I to deny that & embrace them as my fellow family members in Christ when they share Zero in common with me spiritually?
this is confusing to me

IisJustMe · #74 29th May 2008, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Nadiine

Well that poses a problem... how did anyone in the bible or churches decide who a heretic or wolf was if they're most likely just in strongholds & denial rather than heretics??

It has nothing to do with the heretics. If anyone is speaking against God's word, denying what it says, that's pretty easy to spot. It isn't up to us as believers to identify whether it's a stronghold or "tare." In that parable, God said to leave them in place, and they would be taken out by the harvesters. We can tell, if we know the Bible, who is making statements opposing it. We gently lovingly confront them, and if they will not listen, then we institute the church discipline of Matthew 18:15-17. That's all we are called to do.

Engaging in condemnation that is not ours to pronounce, hostility that disgraces the body rather than glorifying God -- we want nothing to do with that, yet most of us engage in it every day relative to a sin issue that is no more condemning than any other sin. Sorry, but that's the truth, and if someone wants to make homosexual behavior more offensive to God than other sin, or an "unforgivable sin" -- I have nothing to say to them. They're wrong, but they won't hear me.

PS: This thread is seriously derailed.

IamRedeemed · #75 29th May 2008, 09:34 AM

Not necessarily? Hello? We have been telling you what we experience FIRST HAND
there every day. I have personally been a member of this site for a year now and
I can tell you that I have YET to see your name there.

Oh yes...they are indeed denying God's Word, and they have false teachers in there
helping them to accomplish that daily.

So, please do not pretend to know it all and then project that presumption as though
it were a fact and in addition falsely accuse people of condemnation.

Please show us the condemnatory posts.

And no, I would disagree that we are off topic.
These are exactly the kinds of things the OP is referring to.

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

Not necessarily. There are far more (I believe) who are living in the stronghold rather than willfully and deliberately denying the word of God. The latter, however, are far more vocal than the others. It is as I said, the ones suffering with guilt, depression and anxiety are the ones living in the stronghold. They may mouth the same words as the deniers, but they are not actually denying God's word so much as they are trying to convince themselves they are "OK." But their guilt is their conviction that they are wrong and they somewhere inside themselves want to break the sin cycle. They won't say those words outloud, but that is where they are, regardless.

Nadiine · #76 29th May 2008, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

It has nothing to do with the heretics. If anyone is speaking against God's word, denying what it says, that's pretty easy to spot. It isn't up to us as believers to identify whether it's a stronghold or "tare." In that parable, God said to leave them in place, and they would be taken out by the harvesters. We can tell, if we know the Bible, who is making statements opposing it. We gently lovingly confront them, and if they will not listen, then we institute the church discipline of Matthew 18:15-17. That's all we are called to do.

Engaging in condemnation that is not ours to pronounce, hostility that disgraces the body rather than glorifying God -- we want nothing to do with that, yet most of us engage in it every day relative to a sin issue that is no more condemning than any other sin. Sorry, but that's the truth, and if someone wants to make homosexual behavior more offensive to God than other sin, or an "unforgivable sin" -- I have nothing to say to them. They're wrong, but they won't hear me.

PS: This thread is seriously derailed.

=) I don't think it's derailed, I think this applies to how we act and react to
these people on this forum seeing as they're everywhere in debate areas
(that's how I view it anyways)...

You claim to see people who condemn here when I don't see that a whole lot (from Christians).
But I'm not talking about condemning people, I'm talking about how we view, percieve and reply to people who preach another gospel or stand for immorality as if God's ok with it.
When is rebuke warrented? Refutation? are they my 'brother or sister in christ"?
& the people who promote immorality are the same ones with the false teachings - who reject the Bible as God's truth, bash the church, bash conservatives/fundamentalists and alot more.

It's more about categorizing & discernment than condemnation.

And I have a feeling that what your calling condemnation, I call "rebuke and refutation" of a false teacher/wolf.

And the reason homosexuality is focused on isn't becuz we find it such a horrific sin, but that it's the thread topic we're in.
If I were in a thread topic on porn, then I'd be focusing on porn, not homosexuality. There's a topic for everything including an abortion subforum.
Some things should be SO obvious that they're sin yet they're so heavily fought to promote & embrace - that's why the arguments over them.

And it IS a worse sin than many others (being sexual in nature) - even tho it's equal in being sin like any others are sin. But homosexuality is right now a hot issue in society when laws are now being changed to provide same sex marriages - it should be discussed due to how prevalent the issue is currently in our country.

Technically, we have to "leave them in place" becuz as per CF rules, they've been given a safe haven here by leadership. Other forums have done a good job in curbing the domination of false teachers by keeping a tighter lid on the definition of a Christian, etc. Sadly CF has chosen to open the doors and put known nonChristians in places of authority and influence.

Nadiine · #77 29th May 2008, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by IamRedeemed

Not necessarily? Hello?

tapping microphone, "is this thing on?" =)~ lol
sorry

We have been telling you what we experience FIRST HAND
there every day. I have personally been a member of this site for a year now and
I can tell you that I have YET to see your name there.

Oh yes...they are indeed denying God's Word, and they have false teachers in their helping them to accomplish that daily.

I'd add that they gang up with pagans, agnostics & atheists to attack all the conservative or fundamental believers as well. I don't find that ironic.

So, please do not pretend to know it all and then project that presumption as though
it were a fact and in addition falsely accuse people of condemnation.

Please show us the condemnatory posts.

I mentioned the same thing, I haven't seen that either. That's why I have a suspicion that his definition of condemnation is our definition of rebuke or refutation (firm correction).
I think Jesus used alot firmer correction when He cast out the moneychangers & attacked the pharisees in Mat. 23
Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte;
and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

I'd have to ask then, WHEN is it warrented to use??? if it's not to be used on these bands of Christian bashers who fight anything nearly anything righteous that they feels restricts anyone from "happiness", then who is it for?

this has me perplexed.

IamRedeemed · #78 29th May 2008, 10:08 AM

Yes, it is easy to spot, and I would go further and say it is more
apostasy that we are witnessing than it is heresy.

Where do you arrive at such an idea?
No one has made homosexuality a "bigger sin" than any other sin
EXCEPT homosexuals. Nor has anyone claimed whatsoever that it is unforgivable, not in the least.
We do know however, that no unrepentant sinner is forgiven, regardless of their sin.

Homosexuals are the only group of people who are not subject to the same requirements
as all other men in their view. Not only is it not repented, it is claimed to not be a sin at all
and according to them, God blesses it, therefore you are just a bigot if you do not agree
and take the Word of God over their word. The Bible itself is attacked as not being the Word of God many times a day. Don't you know that it is a matter of your opinion Mike that the Bible is the Word of God? You have some in there teaching that Jonathan and David were lovers, Daniel was a homosexual, Elijah and Elisha were lovers, that Joseph was Potipher's boy love slave etc., ad nauseum.

That the things Jesus said, were not said by Him (except for the ones that are approved by those who judge these things, such as the 2nd of the two commandments) and in fact, the second commandment is preached regularly in an attempt to thwart anything contrary to homosexuality being wonderful and cause for celebration, that is said in the Word of God and the first commandment is not even a part of the picture.

This particular sin doesn't end as a personal sin. Open your eyes.
It is being rammed down the throats of the Church as well as the rest of society. It is anarchy in action. 2-3% of the population is trying to force their will on the other 97%.

Forcing the Church to marry and acknowledge those marriages.
Raising up Churches that "celebrate" the sin of homosexuality.
Having Pastors thrown in jail if they preach from Genesis, Matthew, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Jude, Revelation etc... in regards to homosexuality as it is now a crime to do so in some places.

Going into our public schools and teaching that this is normal and moral, starting with students as young as 5 years old.

Put your money where your mouth is brother.
I want to see your name in those forums, gently and lovingly
offering correction consistently for the next year.

Please be an example to us and show us the way
you feel it ought to be done.

Thanks in advance and God bless.

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

It has nothing to do with the heretics. If anyone is speaking against God's word, denying what it says, that's pretty easy to spot. It isn't up to us as believers to identify whether it's a stronghold or "tare." In that parable, God said to leave them in place, and they would be taken out by the harvesters. We can tell, if we know the Bible, who is making statements opposing it. We gently lovingly confront them, and if they will not listen, then we institute the church discipline of Matthew 18:15-17. That's all we are called to do.

Engaging in condemnation that is not ours to pronounce, hostility that disgraces the body rather than glorifying God -- we want nothing to do with that, yet most of us engage in it every day relative to a sin issue that is no more condemning than any other sin. Sorry, but that's the truth, and if someone wants to make homosexual behavior more offensive to God than other sin, or an "unforgivable sin" -- I have nothing to say to them. They're wrong, but they won't hear me.

PS: This thread is seriously derailed.

pastortimothy · #79 29th May 2008, 10:22 AM

I have been counseling a few on this very issue. Grace abuse is a problem, to be sure. It is a flaw in thinking and yes, I also believe it speaks to the state of the sinner's heart. Yet, God himself, is the final arbiter on the internal authenticity of any of His children. A genuinly contritious person, at the foot of the Cross, will receive the same forgiveness and saving grace as every other person, regardless of the severity (in our eyes) of the sin. Our hearts are laid bare before the God of the universe. He requires neither didactic nor testimonial evidence of the state of a person's heart--He can see it.
We, as fallable human beings, fail. Jesus doesn't. It's an important distinction to make.
The difference is the intentions of the person who is sinning. Some people say that if a believer continues to sin that they are apostate. Some say that they are simply struggling with areas in their life that are particularly difficult to root out. Yet, every day, not one of us can claim perfection, despite our best intentions. At times, we all act out of anger, fear, pride or whatever. We, human beings, are the greatest categorizers of sin. We people assign levels of severity to different sins. The blood of Jesus is sufficient to cover any amount of sin, in anyones life, regardless of how many times that person has sinned. It is the greatest gift in the history of everything.
Yet, at the same time, forgiveness is preceded by contrition and repentance. This is necessary. Repentance is the act of moving in the opposite direction of sin. It is an action...an action that starts in the heart. If a person is genuinely contritious and penitent 1000 times or more, than the Lord Jesus will forgive that person 1000 times or more. However, if a sinner sins only once, and is not genuinely penitent, than he is still loved but remains unforgiven. This is a function of, and at the sole discretion of God. He decides the rules. He handles His business as He sees fit. God gives grace freely. But the man without a truly contritious heart is incapable of receiving the free gift, even if he sins only once in his lifetime.

Every time we sin, we deny Jesus...we turn away from Him, even if for just a moment. That is all it takes. Consider Peter. The Lord knew that Peter would deny him three times and said so. Well, Peter was already a believer at the time of the denials. After the ressurection, when Jesus was talking to Peter, he distinctly asked Peter if he loved Him three times, in succession--delibrately offsetting each occurrence of each denial seperately. This shows something very important: The very first of Peter's denials, once forgiven, implied that subsequent denials could also be forgiven. Peter was contrite. Peter meant it when he said He loved Him. His heart was true. Jesus knew it. Do you suppose that Peter's sincerity diminished with each time He answered the King's question? I don't think so. Yes, Peter sinned several times in a row, commiting the same sin but He was telling the truth when He said to Jesus "Yes, Lord". Yet, some don't believe there is a connection in these scriptures. I concede that it is, at the least, a point of contention. However, I believe the connection to be present, at least in a revelatory way.

Nadiine · #80 29th May 2008, 10:29 AM

then how do we even decide who we need to "witness salvation" to?
If we can't discern what spiritual condition people are in, then we can't decide that they need salvation.

What did Jesus mean by "you shall KNOW them by their FRUIT" if we can't discern rotten fruit?
And that means that I also have to consider that Mormon's are indeed saved becuz I can't judge if they're following another god.???

Sorry this doesn't mesh with my bible.

Mat. 7
A Tree and Its Fruit

15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing,
but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.