| Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums. |
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15th May 2008, 01:28 AM
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Another confusing dilemma in the Bible (there sure are a lot of them, or maybe I'm just being dumb).
I know of a lot of Christians who actually believe the world is 12,000 years old. I know most Christians do not believe this. Evidence of this of course? Dinosaurs. Never mentioned in the Bible for some reason. But some Christians believe that the dinosaur bones were put on earth to "test us". I find this ludicrous. I dont think God is a practical joker.
On the other hand, I know Christians who DO believe in the theory of evolution. And that the planet is roughly 4,000,000,000 years old. They have used their common sense and used science in CONJUNCION with the bible. This is feel is not wrong. Please remember that the Bible was written by people who still thought the world was flat and that an eclipse was an act of God.
Where do most Christians stand on this? Is the planet a lot younger than we beleive and everything was put here and we were created as humans that did not evolve from chimps? Or are we maybe starting to understand that a lot of Genesis was metaphorical? |
15th May 2008, 08:39 AM
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More of an Origins topic than Philosophy or Ethics...
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“This is the man I want myself to be but who cannot exist, because God does not know anything about him. And to be unknown to God is altogether too much privacy. My false and private self is the one who wants to exist outside the reach of God’s will and God’s love –outside of reality and outside of life. And such a self cannot help but be an illusion." -- Thomas Merton |
15th May 2008, 10:25 AM
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Reps: 10,818,175,665,014,668 (power: 10,818,175,665,020) | | The earth is 10 minutes old as of now. We were all created with memories built-in of everything beforehand.
I bet you're shocked that you didn't really write that.  |
15th May 2008, 11:59 AM
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Reps: 27,749,724,098,880,132 (power: 27,749,724,098,889) | | Originally Posted by crawfish  The earth is 10 minutes old as of now. We were all created with memories built-in of everything beforehand.
I bet you're shocked that you didn't really write that.
So, in other words, the copier goes down .... again.
I get this wierd sense of deja vu.
Its really just a programming glitch in the memory implant.
Guess I will be having two scotches with lunch today.
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in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; |
15th May 2008, 12:05 PM
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Reps: 27,749,724,098,880,132 (power: 27,749,724,098,889) | | Originally Posted by OD3 Another confusing dilemma in the Bible (there sure are a lot of them, or maybe I'm just being dumb).
I know of a lot of Christians who actually believe the world is 12,000 years old. I know most Christians do not believe this. Evidence of this of course? Dinosaurs. Never mentioned in the Bible for some reason. But some Christians believe that the dinosaur bones were put on earth to "test us". I find this ludicrous. I dont think God is a practical joker.
On the other hand, I know Christians who DO believe in the theory of evolution. And that the planet is roughly 4,000,000,000 years old. They have used their common sense and used science in CONJUNCION with the bible. This is feel is not wrong. Please remember that the Bible was written by people who still thought the world was flat and that an eclipse was an act of God.
Where do most Christians stand on this? Is the planet a lot younger than we beleive and everything was put here and we were created as humans that did not evolve from chimps? Or are we maybe starting to understand that a lot of Genesis was metaphorical?
Since, the Bible as written by God, he would have known the earth was round.
There is evidence that many of the educated folks in antiquity also understood that the earth was round.
Eclipses are acts of God, they are just also predictable with astronomy. The crossing of the red sea involved a geologic process to create a land bridge just below the surface in the gulf of aqaba, but also a miracle of God to make the timing just right.
By contrast, Jesus didnt just happen to show up when Lazarus about to naturally join the ranks of the undead.
We dont have a lot of clarity for how much time passed between day 7 of creation and the fall of man, but the generations following Adam seem to add up to about 6,000 years. It is doubtful that the earth is much older than that.
There other models that will create planets and stars within 24 hour days. Remember that even Big Bang is a theory in extremis. If you can push energies, densities, velocities, etc. to practically any value you want, you do get quite a bit of freedom in modelling creation. If you want the links, you may simply ask.
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in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; |
15th May 2008, 03:48 PM
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Reps: 1,984,022,293,840,305,920 (power: 1,984,022,293,840,324) | | Originally Posted by busterdog Since, the Bible as written by God, he would have known the earth was round.
Of course he did, he just didn't share that information with the writers of the bible. He probably had more important lessons to teach the Israelites than science. Ultimately we don't know why God didn't choose teach science in the bible, just that he didn't. Instead he taught the truths of God being an all powerful creator and ruler of the cosmos in terms people understood from their own unscientific cosmology. It is the same with mustard seeds  God was well aware the poppy seed and orchid seeds are smaller than mustard seeds, but the illustration Jesus gave was teaching about faith, not trying to conveying an accurate science lesson. If your interpretation of the bible contradicts established science it is because you misunderstand what the bible is teaching us, not because either the bible or science are wrong. There is evidence that many of the educated folks in antiquity also understood that the earth was round.
But not back when the OT was being written. Greek round earth ideas came later.
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When you come to the Ammonites, do not
harass them or provoke them. Deut 2:19
Last edited by Assyrian; 15th May 2008 at 03:55 PM.
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15th May 2008, 06:06 PM
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Reps: 285,513,216,512,518,400 (power: 285,513,216,512,529) | | Originally Posted by Assyrian It is the same with mustard seeds God was well aware the poppy seed and orchid seeds are smaller than mustard seeds, but the illustration Jesus gave was teaching about faith, not trying to conveying an accurate science lesson.
I always thought that the mustard seed was the smallest that those who Jesus was speaking to were generally familiar with. I'm sure the lesson would have been lost if he referred to a seed that they were not familiar with.
owg |
15th May 2008, 06:34 PM
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Reps: 1,984,022,293,840,305,920 (power: 1,984,022,293,840,324) | | Originally Posted by oldwiseguy I always thought that the mustard seed was the smallest that those who Jesus was speaking to were generally familiar with. I'm sure the lesson would have been lost if he referred to a seed that they were not familiar with.
owg
They would have know about poppies which were grown in the area. But I agree, the lesson would have been lost if he went into a comparative description of seed sizes.
I am not sure poppy seeds would have been a great illustration of faith either, unless you are a marxist smallest of all seeds you are familiar with and when it is full grown becomes the opiate of the people. But calling the tiny and fiery mustard which grows into a huge bush 'the smallest of all seeds' is a wonderful bit of hyperbole and a lovely illustration of faith. But it is not accurate science and was not meant as accurate science.
I can understand the way people feel a need to 'defend the bible' and claim it only means the smallest seed cultivated in the region, but God's word does not need defending, instead we should let issues like this challenge the assumptions we bring to scripture, and learn how God actually speaks to us instead of how we think he should speak.
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When you come to the Ammonites, do not
harass them or provoke them. Deut 2:19
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15th May 2008, 06:44 PM
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Reps: 18,889,155,825,852,136 (power: 18,889,155,825,864) | | Originally Posted by oldwiseguy I always thought that the mustard seed was the smallest that those who Jesus was speaking to were generally familiar with.
You're not suggesting Jesus accomodated his teachings to the limitations of human knowledge, are you? Isn't that blasphemy as far as neocreationists are concerned?
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"There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well." -- creation scientist Dr. Todd Wood |
16th May 2008, 10:28 AM
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Reps: 44,404,246,110,554,912 (power: 44,404,246,110,568) | | [quote=OD3;46951196]Another confusing dilemma in the Bible (there sure are a lot of them, or maybe I'm just being dumb). Originally Posted by OD3 But some Christians believe that the dinosaur bones were put on earth to "test us". I find this ludicrous. I dont think God is a practical joker.
This is a very convenient, shallow and cheap view. Even when some person said something you do not understand, you may accuse him lying or cheating. I still believe it is a very legitimate view of theology that God made everything up like they are in a short period of time, include the numbers from radiometric dating. I do not see anything wrong with this belief. God does not intend to cheat anyone because God tells us that He creates. If you accept creation, then everything is perfect. People do not want to believe his creation, so they said that God cheated them. It really does not matter, they are going to hell anyway.
Everything science established so far (include predictions and verifications) are only models. Only fools will take models as the truth. | | |
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