I gave a lengthy and exegetically supported treatise on the biblical support for the view that the "signs and wonders" gifts have ceased, and ceased long ago. No one has provided any evidence to refute that, so someone saying no one has provided any "sound Sciptural support" says so out of emotion and "experience theology" rather than saying it out of point of fact.
Originally Posted by IamRedeemed
... that would even remotely cause anyone to believe it is true, who has not already experienced that what is trying to be exalted above the knowledge of God is false and certainly can never in a million years convince anyone that those teachings are true, who already knows because they believed the Word of God, and have seen and experienced the reality of the power of the Holy Ghost, that cessationalism is absolutely false.
And this proves my last point beyond a shadow of a doubt, as does this:
Originally Posted by IamRedeemed
The Holy Ghost is not on vacation and the Church has not been left unequipped for the battle at hand while the enemy is still on the loose.
This statement assumes that the Holy Spirit cannot be seen or manifested or "have power" unless He visibly manifests it. It is a perfect example of what Jesus told the royal official in Galilee:
So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." (John 4:48)
That's a chastisement, not a blessing. In fact, Jesus never says anything kind about "signs and wonders." Aside from this warning, He also says that, following His earthly ministry, they would be the tools of Satan, used by false teachers. (Matthew 24:24, Mark 13:22) He does not refer to them otherwise.
Faith is not a magic show and the Holy Spirit is not the magician. Faith is a way of life, and the Holy Spirit is it's "renewer." So now, to avoid the further possibility of offense, I'll end my participation in the discussion. God bless you all.
I have provided one quote from Clement already stating his belief that the teaching of our Lord and the Apostles "ended with Nero".
There is nothing in Clement's words that I believe any any bearing on this, since the teaching of the Lord was indeed once and for all delivered by the apostles. Prophecy is not to establish new teaching, but to speak things to come, and manifest the secret's of hearts. The church fathers did believe in the continuance of prophecy, but not of any new teaching.
1. The method of Montanus' prophesying (ecstatic utterences) seems to be an odd thing, not something commonplace or even "old school". In fact verse 7 calls it "in a manner contrary to the constant custom of the Church handed down by tradition from the beginning." So not only did people find it to be odd, they apparently also knew it wasn't done that way from the beginning as well.
Yes, Montanus was a false prophet who prophesied in ecstasy, which was not the custom of the church. What's very interesting is that a Montanist prophetess claimed that after her, there would be no more prophecy (in other words they taught prophecy would cease). But the orthodox response is very interesting. This is from the next chapter of Eusebius after the one you quoted from:
Having found these things in a certain work of theirs in opposition to the work of the brother Alcibiades, in which he shows that a prophet ought not to speak in ecstasy, I made an abridgment.
2. A little further on in the same work he gives a list of those who prophesied under the new covenant, among whom he enumerates a certain Ammia and Quadratus, saying:But the false prophet falls into an ecstasy, in which he is without shame or fear. Beginning with purposed ignorance, he passes on, as has been stated, to involuntary madness of soul.
3. They cannot show that one of the old or one of the new prophets was thus carried away in spirit. Neither can they boast of Agabus, or Judas, or Silas, or the daughters of Philip, or Ammia in Philadelphia, or Quadratus, or any others not belonging to them.
4. And again after a little he says: For if after Quadratus and Ammia in Philadelphia, as they assert, the women with Montanus received the prophetic gift, let them show who among them received it from Montanus women. For the apostle thought it necessary that the propheticgift should continue in all the Church until the final coming. But they cannot show it, though this is the fourteenth year since the death of Maximilla
2. Whenever "prophets" are mention in the ECF, they are mentioned in a similar manner as the above passages (prophesies not coming to pass, etc. (How many times does a Prophet of God have to be wrong, before he is not a Prophet anyway?)
In the quote I gave above, a number of old and new prophets are listed favourably. Melito, bishop of Sardis, was regarded as a prophet among the orthodox, as we learn from Jerome's Lives.
3. What really ought to concern modern-day prophets and our original poster here is the statement in vs 9: "But sometimes he rebuked them openly in a wise and faithful manner, that he might seem to be a reprover.". That would be a major concern to me as it appears to be difficult to tell who is speaking to you.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I can't defend modern day 'prophets' (or is that 'profits'?). I'm just defending that they did continue past the apostolic age, and from time to time since then.
4. I'm sure you see the parallel between Montanus and many modern-day Charasmatics in method and content.
Yes, there are some scary similarities. Apollonius tells us for example that they had money collectors “who contrived the receiving of gifts under the name of offerings” (EH 5.18.2). Evidently the prophetesses used the money to ordain themselves in gold and costly apparel. Apollonius complained: “Does not all Scripture seem to you to forbid a prophet to receive gifts and money? When therefore I see the prophetess receiving gold and silver and costly garments, how can I avoid reproving her?” (EH 5.18.4). Another Montanist leader named Themiso “was clothed with plausible covetousness” (EH 5.18.5). And Apollonius complained of how “those whom they call prophets and martyrs gather their gain not only from rich men, but also from the poor, and orphans, and widows” (EH 5.18.7).
This evidence tends to lead me way from considering a more "Charasmatic" path in my walk with God.
I believe God is real and still works in miraculous ways today. But I did grow quite disillusioned with the charismatic movement after some years within it.
Most charasmatic Christians I know will point to some passage in Joel which seems to be fulfilled in Acts 2 (Peter seems to think so) or will point to a "latter rains", but cannot give a reason why the 1800-1900's seemed to be the optimal time after ~1700 years of silence.
We really don't know what want on during the period 350-1500, though there are a few accounts of miracles of healing and prophecy even during that period (Patrick, among the Waldenses)
Look, I don't have an axe to grind with our charasmatic friends here. I'm simply saying "history says what it says". And in my studies it seems that gifts such as these ended with the Apostles and those they laid hands on.
There have been periods in which some amazing miracles have been recorded, that I would find difficult to dismiss - amongst the covenanters, the early methodists, even among the early baptists miracles are recorded.
One last quote that has some bearing on the charismatic prophecy is from Irenaeus:
“Behold Charis has descended upon thee; open thy mouth and prophesy." On the woman replying," I have never at any time prophesied, nor do I know how to prophesy;" then engaging, for the second time, in certain invocations, so as to astound his deluded victim, he says to her," Open thy mouth, speak whatsoever occurs to thee, and thou shalt prophesy." She then, vainly puffed up and elated by these words, and greatly excited in soul by the expectation that it is herself who is to prophesy, her heart beating violently [from emotion], reaches the requisite pitch of audacity, and idly as well as impudently utters some nonsense as it happens to occur to her, such as might be expected from one heated by an empty spirit. (Referring to this, one superior to me has observed, that the soul is
both audacious and impudent when heated with empty air.) Henceforth she reckons herself a prophetess, and expresses her thanks to Marcus for having imparted to her of his own Chaffs. She then makes the effort to reward him, not only by the gift of her possessions (in which way he has collected a very large fortune), but also by yielding up to him her person, desiring in every way to be united to him, that she may become altogether one with him.4. But already some of the most faithful women, possessed of the fear of God, and not being deceived (whom, nevertheless, he did his best to seduce like the rest by bidding them prophesy), abhorring and execrating him, have withdrawn from such a vile company of revellers. This they have done, as being well aware that the gift of prophecy is not conferred on men by Marcus, the magician, but that only those to whom God sends His grace from above possess the divinely-bestowed power of prophesying; and then they speak where and when God pleases, and not when Marcus orders them to do so.
I dont need theologians or any man to tell me what is of God and I know that God works the same today as He did in the past. I know that the name of Jesus carries power and authority, I know that Jesus sent us all to preach the gospel with signs and wonders following, I know that prophecy still operates today, I know that healing is still available today. Man can argue all he wants about it, I will just see the results.
__________________ They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary, and they shall walk and not faint. Isaiah 40:31
You gave a lengthy diatribe that was refuted and you abandoned the thread brother.
You keep pointing to your OP, but the refutation is within the pages following. Besides that you
cannot argue away what God is doing currently and has been doing throughout Church History,
just because you fail to believe it. There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of recipients,
witnesses and ministers in addition to the Biblically sound doctrine regarding it, that whatever you
or any other unbelieving believer attempt to come up with, cannot refute.
You should read the testimony of Delores Winder, a woman who believed and
was taught exactly the same as you and is alive today, because the Gifts of the
Holy Spirit is alive and in operation today!
An awesome and powerful testimony indeed!
She has a book called "Joy Comes in the Morning"
that contains her testimony.
You might also be able to obtain info about it on the web.
Of course, I do not have to tell you that she is now
a believing believer.
I gave a lengthy and exegetically supported treatise on the biblical support for the view that the "signs and wonders" gifts have ceased, and ceased long ago. No one has provided any evidence to refute that, so someone saying no one has provided any "sound Sciptural support" says so out of emotion and "experience theology" rather than saying it out of point of fact.And this proves my last point beyond a shadow of a doubt, as does this: This statement assumes that the Holy Spirit cannot be seen or manifested or "have power" unless He visibly manifests it. It is a perfect example of what Jesus told the royal official in Galilee:
So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." (John 4:48)
That's a chastisement, not a blessing. In fact, Jesus never says anything kind about "signs and wonders." Aside from this warning, He also says that, following His earthly ministry, they would be the tools of Satan, used by false teachers. (Matthew 24:24, Mark 13:22) He does not refer to them otherwise.
Faith is not a magic show and the Holy Spirit is not the magician. Faith is a way of life, and the Holy Spirit is it's "renewer." So now, to avoid the further possibility of offense, I'll end my participation in the discussion. God bless you all.
__________________ There are very few left here who are actually speaking the Words of the Lord, this prophecy of Amos is coming true right in your very midst. Today if your hear His voice, harden not your heart. Repent and be converted.
Amos 8:11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
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They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16
"I know that God is always on the side of right; my concern is not whether
God is on our side but whether or not we are on God's side" Abraham Lincoln
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This is an age old debate that simply shouldn't be for it is divisive in the Church.
Miracles never ceased, period. I've witnessed miracles both performed by God and performed by "people" praying to God. I will never say "people" did the miracle for without God in them they can do nothing, unless they are working through Satan, and I'm not even gonna go there!
If you pray to block someone from driving into a potentially harmful situation and suddenly a tornado levels trees down the one road where that situation would occur thus blocking the person from driving there, what is that? A coincidence?
If a man is trying to ram your car with a car twice the size of yours and you point at him and yell "Stop in Jesus name" and his car immediately stalls, what is that: The power of my hand and words or God working miracles?
If you ask God for a miracle to deliver you from a terrible situation where it seems in the natural there is no way out, and less than 3 hours later you are delivered, what is that : mind power or Gods miracle?
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face.... that refers to seeing Jesus face to face and at that point the gifts will cease for they are no longer needed. the gifts are for the edifying of the church and for a sign to unbelievers at times. The need for edification and for signs to unbelievers never stopped so why should the gifts? In Revelation it speaks of the 2 witnesses performing miracles and calling fire down from heaven. This is still a future event for the tribulation time. If the gift of miracles have ceased then that scripture is a lie. And we know that isn't right.
Miracles happen.... but if someone doubts them then they just won't see any themselves. Sad, really.
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So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." (John 4:48)
That's a chastisement, not a blessing. In fact, Jesus never says anything kind about "signs and wonders." Aside from this warning, He also says that, following His earthly ministry, they would be the tools of Satan, used by false teachers. (Matthew 24:24, Mark 13:22) He does not refer to them otherwise.
.
Really? He never says anything kind about signs and wonders?
Matthew 10:8 - "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."
Healing, cleansing and casting out devils would be considered signs...
Mark 9:39 - "But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me."
(Note he doesn't say "just apostles here, does he?")
In Luke 10 Jesus sends out 70 people, not just apostles. He gives them power to perform miracles.
"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
And for a time yet to come,
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. "
~ Revelation 11:3 - 6
Obviously Jesus did mentions signs and wonders in a possitive light. The only negative he spoke of was when the pharisees demanded a sign to prove Jesus was divine, or else when he warned us about satanic signs that people might believe come from God. If we seek signs specifically to prove the existance of God then we've missed the mark. If we trust in God by faith then God will do signs and wonders at His time and by His will, not because we seek signs but because God is God and does signs!
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Originally Posted by IamRedeemed
You gave a lengthy diatribe that was refuted and you abandoned the thread brother.
No, my friend, there was no need to repeat myself. There was no refutation. No one proved my exegesis of the passages to be faulty, and no one will, because, again, they are not. The same kind of posts that are seen here -- based on emotion and "experience" -- were used to "counter" solid exegetical argument, and they failed there as well as here. I'm sorry you don't accept that your "experience" is not valid in the face of Scripture. So, you can be as condescending as you choose to be in placing "experience" above Scripture, but that is no more valid than claiming the Catholic "tradition" is equal to Scripture. I couldn't let this comment stand without casting it in the light of truth. So reply if you will, it won't make any difference. It is not my knowledge or education that makes me right. It is the fact of God's will and desire. Those engaging in the "signs and wonders" gifts today are out of the will of God, period. Not that they are not believers. But they are not obedient. Now I'm done.
Hmm? But still there are no clear passages that say the gifts are or will be removed other than when we see Jesus face to face as Paul said. I mean now we speak, teach and understand as a child but one day we shall be face to face with the Lord no longer looking dimly into the mirror but shall then put off childish things. At THAT point, gifts will cease. Are you face to face yet? I take it that this is referring to the millennial reign, not the church age. He was speaking of the future, and then still spoke of the future as the chapter context flows. They will cease, and we will be face to face then, and we will put off childish things then, but that hasn't happened yet.
But what I recall you bringing forward were commentary rather than scripture. Wasn’t that what got the Jews in trouble when Jesus first came? I mean they built up commentary upon commentary and law upon law that they were unable to make any sense out of the scripture any longer, that God Himself delivered to them.
I think some take old commentary too seriously, because there is often an attitude that those from the past knew more of spiritual matters and understanding the bible, as though today’s understanding is lacking compared to the old traditional commentators. But I see the opposite, that the church has become much more mature, being ever closer to being face to face, having now a greater understanding being more mature now. Not all, but some. Isn't that how maturity works? It progresses, not digresses.
Once we go outside the bible, we can get in a lot of trouble. I’ve mentioned this to you a few times, like with using psychology etc.. it’s not from the bible but manmade. The same problems can be found in using old commentary that really itself does not really address scripture directly but tries to unveil something that is never said, being in this case that the gifts have ceased. It’s just not in scripture, it has nothing to do with some emotional response, it’s just not there. And just because old commentary says one thing or another, that does not make it so, not unless it directly lines up with scripture.
Spoken like a true fundie, eh?
__________________
A little faith will bring your soul to heaven; A great faith will bring heaven to your soul.--Charles Spurgeon The Christian life is not a constant high. I have my moments of deep discouragement. I have to go to God in prayer with tears in my eyes, and say, 'O God, forgive me,' or 'Help me.' --Billy Graham
Last edited by Psalms34; 12th May 2008 at 01:38 PM.
No, my friend, there was no need to repeat myself. There was no refutation. No one proved my exegesis of the passages to be faulty, and no one will, because, again, they are not. The same kind of posts that are seen here -- based on emotion and "experience" -- were used to "counter" solid exegetical argument, and they failed there as well as here. I'm sorry you don't accept that your "experience" is not valid in the face of Scripture. So, you can be as condescending as you choose to be in placing "experience" above Scripture, but that is no more valid than claiming the Catholic "tradition" is equal to Scripture. I couldn't let this comment stand without casting it in the light of truth. So reply if you will, it won't make any difference. It is not my knowledge or education that makes me right. It is the fact of God's will and desire. Those engaging in the "signs and wonders" gifts today are out of the will of God, period. Not that they are not believers. But they are not obedient. Now I'm done.[/color][/size][/font]
In other words every time God gives me a word of knowledge, a vision, prospers me, heals me, I am out of the will of God? That puzzles me as He has done all these things in my life and in the lives of many others so how van that be faulty for it wasnt my emotion that payed that bill or fixed my car nor was it emotion that healed me or told me a word that God slipped in something I had no way of jknowing to validate that word to that person. It isnt about winning or losing an argument, it is however about flowing with the Holy Spirit.
__________________ They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run and not be weary, and they shall walk and not faint. Isaiah 40:31
You have surely misinterpreted what has been said here haven't you?
You see brother, it is BECAUSE we have believed the Scriptures that we have seen the
miraculous things of God, not because we have seen the miraculous things of God did we believe.
Let me repeat that: ........it is BECAUSE we have believed the Scriptures that we have seen the miraculous things of
God, not because we have seen the miraculous things of God did we believe.
We believed first. The manifestation came as a result of the belief in the Lord, as confirmed by the word of His Testimony
that it would come to be.
Jesus said in Mark 16:16-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly
thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Do be careful brother in your arrogance, lest you blaspheme the Holy Ghost.
For it IS your "knowledge" and "education" and the "knowledge and education"
of other men, for which you are contending, that looks to exalt itself above
the knowledge of God, which is written in His Word.
We cannot "engage", lest the Holy Spirit engages us. We cannot perform miracles.
It is the Holy Spirit of God who does it through believing vessels.
and PS: Your 'exegesis' was absolutely refuted.
Read through that thread again.
Originally Posted by IisJustMe
No, my friend, there was no need to repeat myself. There was no refutation. No one proved my exegesis of the passages to be faulty, and no one will, because, again, they are not. The same kind of posts that are seen here -- based on emotion and "experience" -- were used to "counter" solid exegetical argument, and they failed there as well as here. I'm sorry you don't accept that your "experience" is not valid in the face of Scripture. So, you can be as condescending as you choose to be in placing "experience" above Scripture, but that is no more valid than claiming the Catholic "tradition" is equal to Scripture. I couldn't let this comment stand without casting it in the light of truth. So reply if you will, it won't make any difference. It is not my knowledge or education that makes me right. It is the fact of God's will and desire. Those engaging in the "signs and wonders" gifts today are out of the will of God, period. Not that they are not believers. But they are not obedient. Now I'm done.[/color][/size][/font]
__________________ There are very few left here who are actually speaking the Words of the Lord, this prophecy of Amos is coming true right in your very midst. Today if your hear His voice, harden not your heart. Repent and be converted.
Amos 8:11-12 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
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They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16
"I know that God is always on the side of right; my concern is not whether
God is on our side but whether or not we are on God's side" Abraham Lincoln
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Last edited by IamRedeemed; 12th May 2008 at 02:57 PM.
Reason: clarification added "which is written in His Word" and PS
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