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  #41  
Old 31st August 2004, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by winteralfs
Kerry's testimony before congress was brave, honorable, and unfortunetly more accurate then not, if a bit exagerated.

Kerry's book cover photo was disgracful, in bad taste and nasty.

Kerry's endorcment of the North Vietnamese regime, was niave and short cited.

I will be voting for kerry this November, and I consider myself independent.

“ … to have former military people actually come up and testify against our activities in Vietnam and to accuse us of being war criminals was devastating. and then to have this man end up in the Congress of the United States is unbelievable and of course he has been anti-military, anti-defense.” (Excerpt from “Stolen Honor”)

- Ronald Webb
Former Vietnam POW








Fahrenheit 1971: the radicalism of the young John Kerry Author: Dated: Saturday, August 28 2004 @ 11:00 AM PDT Viewed: 5544 times -- by Mackubin Thomas Owens

We will not quickly join those who march on Veterans' Day waving small flags, calling to memory those thousands who died for the "greater glory of the United States." We will not accept the rhetoric. We will not readily join the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars--in fact, we will find it hard to join anything at all and when we do, we will demand relevancy such as other organizations have recently been unable to provide. We will not take solace from the creation of monuments or the naming of parks after a select few of the thousands of dead Americans and Vietnamese. We will not uphold the traditions which decorously memorialize that which was base and grim. . . . We are asking America to turn from false glory, hollow victory, fabricated foreign threats, fear which threatens us as a nation, shallow pride which feeds of fear.

John F. Kerry
Epilogue to The New Soldier (1971)

WHEN THE VIETNAM VETERANS' MEMORIAL was unveiled in Washington, D.C., in the 1980s, there was a great deal of talk about "healing" the divisions of the Vietnam war. The controversy generated by the anti-Kerry book Unfit for Command and ads run by an organization called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth criticizing John Kerry's record in Vietnam and his actions after he returned indicates that there is still a lot of "healing" to do. Indeed, the divisions over the Vietnam war may well never heal as long as those who fought it and those who protested it are still alive. This is because the very act of remembering Vietnam places one in the midst of a culture war.

On the one side in this culture war are those who believe that Vietnam wasn't very different from other wars. The cause was just, but it was as affected by ambiguities as any other war, including World War II. In the end, the U.S. defeat was the result of strategic failure, not moral failure. Those who fought it were doing their duty as they saw it, just as their fathers and grandfathers had done theirs when the times demanded it of them.

On the other side are those for whom the Vietnam war represented the very essence of evil. The United States had no business fighting this war and could never have won it. It was not like other wars. All it did was wreck lives, American and Vietnamese. It was one continuous atrocity. War crimes were par for the course. Those who fought it were different from those who fought the "good war." They returned home psychologically if not physically crippled--homeless, drug addicted, and likely to commit suicide.

Some on the anti-Vietnam side have moderated their views in light of what happened in the aftermath of the U.S. withdrawal from Southeast Asia. They stipulate that they were wrong about communism. The cost of American defeat was high, especially to the South Vietnamese and Cambodians. The price of South Vietnam's "liberation" was, in addition to Saigon's war dead, a minimum of 100,000 summary executions at the hands of the Communist liberators, a million and a half "boat people," a like number of individuals sentenced to "reeducation camps," genocide in Cambodia, and a perceived shift in the "correlation of forces" that encouraged Soviet adventurism throughout the 1970s. But as Mickey Kaus admitted in an essay that appeared in Slate in May 2001 amid the furor over whether the killing of certain civilians by men under the command of former Nebraska senator Bob Kerrey amounted to a war crime, those who had moderated their antiwar views still wanted to be honored for their "idealism": "The Thanh Phong story," Kaus wrote, "reminds us that avoiding serving in Vietnam had an honorable and realistic ethical basis (in addition to its realistic selfish basis)."

But others on the anti-Vietnam side of the culture war continue to take their bearings, either directly or indirectly, from the hard-core opinion of those who believe that the Vietnam war represented all that is evil about America--capitalistic exploitation, racism, and imperialism. Noam Chomsky and H. Bruce Franklin exemplify this view. As the latter writes in "The Vietnam War and the Culture Wars," Vietnam, far from being "an aberration, some kind of wayward 'mistake' by a nation long leading the world's march to progress," instead "typified the nation's history from colonial settler regime to global empire." Indeed, for Franklin, the Vietnam war was the culmination of the 600-year-old European crusade to oppress people of color throughout the globe--thus the mass murderer Lt. William Calley (My Lai) was only the latest manifestation of the spirit of that earlier mass murderer, Christopher Columbus.

During his presidential campaign, John Kerry has sought to portray himself as a member of the first group--a veteran proud of his service in Vietnam. In his remarks on July 25 at the Democratic National Convention, Kerry said, "We [veterans] fought for this nation because we loved it. . . . I defended this country as a young man and I will defend it as president." But this sentiment is completely at odds with his infamous testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, wherein he said he and those he spoke for were "ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia. . . And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom . . . is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy."

The fact is that most Americans have no idea how radical Kerry's views on Vietnam were. His April 1971 Senate testimony (reprinted in full on pages 9-12) could have been written by Chomsky or Franklin. But the larger reality is even more troubling. In his indispensable America in Vietnam, Guenter Lewy notes the establishment of a veritable war-crimes industry, supported by the Soviet Union, as early as 1965. As Ion Mihai Pacepa, a former Romanian intelligence chief, has recounted, the Soviets set up permanent international organizations--including the International War Crimes Tribunal and the Stockholm Conference on Vietnam--"to aid or to conduct operations to help Americans dodge the draft or defect, to demoralize its army with anti-American propaganda, to conduct protests, demonstrations, and boycotts, and to sanction anyone connected with the war." Pacepa claims to have been responsible for fabricating stories about U.S. atrocities in Vietnam and "flacking" them to Western news organizations. Lewy writes that "the Communists made skillful use of their worldwide propaganda apparatus . . . and they found many Western intellectuals only too willing to accept every conceivable allegation of [American] wrongdoing at face value." The Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), a small, radical group that never exceeded a membership of 7,000 (including John Kerry) from a pool of nearly 3 million Vietnam (and 9 million Vietnam-era) veterans, essentially "Americanized" Soviet propaganda. When he testified before the Senate in 1971, Kerry was merely repeating charges that had been making the rounds since 1965.


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  #42  
Old 31st August 2004, 08:18 PM
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“ … to have former military people actually come up and testify against our activities in Vietnam and to accuse us of being war criminals was devastating. and then to have this man end up in the Congress of the United States is unbelievable and of course he has been anti-military, anti-defense.” (Excerpt from “Stolen Honor”)

- Ronald Webb
Former Vietnam POW



This is very sad. Of course further harming American POWs through physical damage, or emotional damage is a terrible thing. The best difference between our country and the communism that we were fighting against is that fact that A John Kerry could and would testify like he did. If a soldier did disagree with our countries policies durring a war, and witness what he considered terrible injustices with how that war was being fought, to testify to that is of the utmost importance.

Fahrenheit 1971: the radicalism of the young John Kerry Author: Dated: Saturday, August 28 2004 @ 11:00 AM PDT Viewed: 5544 times -- by Mackubin Thomas Owens

We will not quickly join those who march on Veterans' Day waving small flags, calling to memory those thousands who died for the "greater glory of the United States." We will not accept the rhetoric. We will not readily join the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars--in fact, we will find it hard to join anything at all and when we do, we will demand relevancy such as other organizations have recently been unable to provide. We will not take solace from the creation of monuments or the naming of parks after a select few of the thousands of dead Americans and Vietnamese. We will not uphold the traditions which decorously memorialize that which was base and grim. . . . We are asking America to turn from false glory, hollow victory, fabricated foreign threats, fear which threatens us as a nation, shallow pride which feeds of fear.



sounds a lot like some of the issues raised by the war in Iraq. Promoting a culture of fear etc... As to monuments concerning the vietnam war specifically, I would argue for there importance. Honoring the soldiers who fought in that war is of the utmost importance becuase of their treatment when they returned home. That does not mean we should turn a blind eye to critizing policies of the war, howver, i consider them 2 seperate things.

WHEN THE VIETNAM VETERANS' MEMORIAL was unveiled in Washington, D.C., in the 1980s, there was a great deal of talk about "healing" the divisions of the Vietnam war. The controversy generated by the anti-Kerry book Unfit for Command and ads run by an organization called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth criticizing John Kerry's record in Vietnam and his actions after he returned indicates that there is still a lot of "healing" to do. Indeed, the divisions over the Vietnam war may well never heal as long as those who fought it and those who protested it are still alive. This is because the very act of remembering Vietnam places one in the midst of a culture war.


very true. however, I believe healing can take place, but it involves dealing with facts and not innuendo, always treating the soldiers who fought the war with respect, and never burying or overlooking controversial elements of the war and its battles/operations.

On the one side in this culture war are those who believe that Vietnam wasn't very different from other wars. The cause was just, but it was as affected by ambiguities as any other war, including World War II. In the end, the U.S. defeat was the result of strategic failure, not moral failure. Those who fought it were doing their duty as they saw it, just as their fathers and grandfathers had done theirs when the times demanded it of them.

I would agree with some of this. I do believe that the war was "lost" due to strategic failures and not moral ones, however I think there is overlap there. I believe we didnt understand how the people of vietnam as a whole would percieve are presence there. Fighting colonization, as they were the french, and we were simply an extension of that fight. We of course fully suported the french durring their war there, and when the french finally pulled out we were furious. We then staged the golf of tonkin incedent to allow us to get involved, and our vietnam war ensued. We also didnt fully grasp ho chi min, a leader who even quoted our counrties founding documents and leaders when he was fighting for a unified and "free" vietnam before our involvment. we consistenly went against him, and when we did go to war, he was still very much a peoples hero. There are many many policy issues i would take issue with, but i dont believe we "lost" the war due to any lack of courage or lack of moral fortitude in our general fighting men.

On the other side are those for whom the Vietnam war represented the very essence of evil. The United States had no business fighting this war and could never have won it. It was not like other wars. All it did was wreck lives, American and Vietnamese. It was one continuous atrocity. War crimes were par for the course. Those who fought it were different from those who fought the "good war." They returned home psychologically if not physically crippled--homeless, drug addicted, and likely to commit suicide.

Again some of this I would agree with, but not to the extreme tone of the language. It was a very tragic war, so it did "wreck many lives" and devastate, and continues to devastate, the country of vietnam. it was also hard on America, not just in the soldiers lost and wounded, but too our national confidense. I do believe there were many atrocities in that war. Many vets did not come home to be homeless and "damaged" for good. Most are leading normal and productive lives, and carry the memories of their time there personally and peacfully.

Some on the anti-Vietnam side have moderated their views in light of what happened in the aftermath of the U.S. withdrawal from Southeast Asia. They stipulate that they were wrong about communism. The cost of American defeat was high, especially to the South Vietnamese and Cambodians. The price of South Vietnam's "liberation" was, in addition to Saigon's war dead, a minimum of 100,000 summary executions at the hands of the Communist liberators, a million and a half "boat people," a like number of individuals sentenced to "reeducation camps," genocide in Cambodia, and a perceived shift in the "correlation of forces" that encouraged Soviet adventurism throughout the 1970s. But as Mickey Kaus admitted in an essay that appeared in Slate in May 2001 amid the furor over whether the killing of certain civilians by men under the command of former Nebraska senator Bob Kerrey amounted to a war crime, those who had moderated their antiwar views still wanted to be honored for their "idealism": "The Thanh Phong story," Kaus wrote, "reminds us that avoiding serving in Vietnam had an honorable and realistic ethical basis (in addition to its realistic selfish basis)."

Very true,. The North Vietnamese were/are a brutal and represive regime that was not kind too its own people as well as our G.Is. I would have some issue with America reliquishing all responcability for the millions dead in cambodia, as there is more to that then simply the communists killing disbelievers. The U.S. bombing of the country as well as the Pol Pot regime being backed unofficially by our country even after knowlege of what was taking place there was public, leaves our hands more then a little dirty.

But others on the anti-Vietnam side of the culture war continue to take their bearings, either directly or indirectly, from the hard-core opinion of those who believe that the Vietnam war represented all that is evil about America--capitalistic exploitation, racism, and imperialism. Noam Chomsky and H. Bruce Franklin exemplify this view. As the latter writes in "The Vietnam War and the Culture Wars," Vietnam, far from being "an aberration, some kind of wayward 'mistake' by a nation long leading the world's march to progress," instead "typified the nation's history from colonial settler regime to global empire." Indeed, for Franklin, the Vietnam war was the culmination of the 600-year-old European crusade to oppress people of color throughout the globe--thus the mass murderer Lt. William Calley (My Lai) was only the latest manifestation of the spirit of that earlier mass murderer, Christopher Columbus.


A bit of hyperbole, and definately not the whole story. I would have issues with much of this as being simply extreme rhetoric, and not a very complex view our our national history. I would be sympathetic to some of its implied specifics.

During his presidential campaign, John Kerry has sought to portray himself as a member of the first group--a veteran proud of his service in Vietnam. In his remarks on July 25 at the Democratic National Convention, Kerry said, "We [veterans] fought for this nation because we loved it. . . . I defended this country as a young man and I will defend it as president." But this sentiment is completely at odds with his infamous testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, wherein he said he and those he spoke for were "ashamed of and hated what we were called on to do in Southeast Asia. . . And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom . . . is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy


the problems i do have with Kerry have to do with his seeming to flip flop when the wind suites him. He has tempored or reversed his oppinion on some of these things, and he was very active in the anti-war movement on returning home. So while I probably do side close to him in the spirit of some of his actions and comments, i can fully understand those who are disgusted by his seemingly opurtunistic behavior at times.

The fact is that most Americans have no idea how radical Kerry's views on Vietnam were. His April 1971 Senate testimony (reprinted in full on pages 9-12) could have been written by Chomsky or Franklin. But the larger reality is even more troubling. In his indispensable America in Vietnam, Guenter Lewy notes the establishment of a veritable war-crimes industry, supported by the Soviet Union, as early as 1965. As Ion Mihai Pacepa, a former Romanian intelligence chief, has recounted, the Soviets set up permanent international organizations--including the International War Crimes Tribunal and the Stockholm Conference on Vietnam--"to aid or to conduct operations to help Americans dodge the draft or defect, to demoralize its army with anti-American propaganda, to conduct protests, demonstrations, and boycotts, and to sanction anyone connected with the war." Pacepa claims to have been responsible for fabricating stories about U.S. atrocities in Vietnam and "flacking" them to Western news organizations. Lewy writes that "the Communists made skillful use of their worldwide propaganda apparatus . . . and they found many Western intellectuals only too willing to accept every conceivable allegation of [American] wrongdoing at face value." The Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), a small, radical group that never exceeded a membership of 7,000 (including John Kerry) from a pool of nearly 3 million Vietnam (and 9 million Vietnam-era) veterans, essentially "Americanized" Soviet propaganda. When he testified before the Senate in 1971, Kerry was merely repeating charges that had been making the rounds since 1965.


This is why it is of the utmost imprtance too always get to the truth, and deal with facts and not innuendo. If in fact there were examples of atrocities durring the vietnam war, which of course their were, we have to know when and where they happened, how they came to happen etc...covering up missions gone bad, or discarding data when it is embarassing to the military serves no one in the long run. Its hard to always trust the military to police itself, as they have a history of trying to bury less then admirable behavior or outcomes to their policy. The truth through accurate records, and testimony will show or discredeit any and all activity durring the vietnam conflict. There has been too much personal testimony of nasty behavior over there for me to dismiss the reports of actrocites being committed. Much of this lies in the definiton, with free fire zones and a enemy that could come in many forms, different people draw the line at combatent in different places. The facts when they come out as common knowlege let us deal with the war in the way that we should, honestly. We should work to make ammends when misdeeds are uncovered and stand tall about our genuine accomplishments, of which there was plenty. To pretend that there were no more dirty policy in vietnam then any other war is not accurate, howver, and we as a nation need to come to terms with this officially, no matter how publically embarassing. It is the right thing to do.
  #43  
Old 31st August 2004, 08:57 PM
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winteralfs:
Excelent and balanced take on the issue.
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  #44  
Old 3rd September 2004, 05:08 PM
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Stolen Honor


“And they, the interrogator went through all of these statements from John Kerry. He starts pounding on the table. “See here, this naval officer, he admits that you are a criminal.” (Excerpt from “Stolen Honor”)

- James Warner
Former Vietnam POW


“This man committed an act of treason. He lied, he besmirched our name and he did it for self-interest. And now he wants us to forget.” (Excerpt from “Stolen Honor”)

- Colonel George (Bud) Day
Former Vietnam POW






Welcome to KerryLied.com

John Kerry told the world we were war criminals who raped, tortured and murdered in Vietnam. Now, thirty-three years later, we will tell America the truth. Join us at the rally we call:


KERRY LIED . . . while good men died
A gathering of Vietnam veterans from across America Where: Upper Senate Park, Washington, D.C. It is easy to get to, shady and pretty, with a great view of the Capitol dome in back of the speaker's platform. THIS IS A NEW LOCATION AS OF 7/17/04

When: Sunday, Sept 12, 2004 2:00-4:00 PM (EDT)

Why: To tell the truth about Vietnam veterans.
To counter the lies told about Vietnam veterans by John Kerry

All Vietnam veterans and their families and supporters are asked to attend.Other veterans are invited as honored guests.

Register by Clicking Here
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Last edited by Gunny; 3rd September 2004 at 07:58 PM.
  #45  
Old 3rd September 2004, 07:56 PM
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Uhh well about the POW interrogators story...
McCain has stated he was never told anything like that.
He was a POW, and he has said repeatedly this was not an issue.
One other point he makes is that the POW's assumed the interrogators were trying to manipulate and used lies.

Uhh one more thing war does produce atrocities. Kerry had the truth on that.
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  #46  
Old 3rd September 2004, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by daidhaid
Uhh well about the POW interrogators story...
McCain has stated he was never told anything like that.
He was a POW, and he has said repeatedly this was not an issue.
Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2004 12:35 p.m. EST


McCain: Hanoi Hilton Guards Taunted POWs With Kerry's Testimony

These days, former Vietnam War POW Sen. John McCain has nothing but praise for his fellow Vietnam veteran Sen. John Kerry, the Democrats' current presidential front-runner.

But after he was released from the Hanoi Hilton in 1973, McCain publicly complained that testimony by Kerry and others before J. William Fulbright's Senate Foreign Relations Committee was "the most effective propaganda [my North Vietnamese captors] had to use against us."

"They used Senator Fulbright a great deal," McCain wrote in the May 14, 1973, issue of U.S. News & World Report. While he was languishing in a North Vietnamese prison cell, Kerry was telling the Fulbright committee that U.S. soldiers were committing war crimes in Vietnam as a matter of course.

Sen. Ted Kennedy, a key Kerry presidential backer, was "quoted again and again" by jailers at the Hanoi Hilton, McCain said.

"Clark Clifford was another [North Vietnamese] favorite," the ex-POW told U.S. News, "right after he had been Secretary of Defense under President Johnson."

"When Ramsey Clark came over [my jailers] thought that was a great coup for their cause," McCain recalled. Months earlier, Sen. Kerry had appeared with Clark at the April 1971 Washington, D.C., anti-war protest that showcased his testimony before the Fulbright Committee.

"All through this period," wrote McCain, his captors were "bombarding us with anti-war quotes from people in high places back in Washington. This was the most effective propaganda they had to use against us."

McCain biographer Paul Alexander chronicled the Arizona Republican's anger toward Kerry during their early careers in the Senate together.

"For many years McCain held Kerry's actions against him because, while McCain was a POW in the Hanoi Hilton, Kerry was organizing veterans back home in the U.S. to protest the war."

In his 2002 book, "Man of the People: The Life of John McCain," Alexander says that the two Vietnam vets finally reconciled in the early 1990s after having "a long - and at times emotional - conversation about Vietnam" during a mutual trip to Kuwait. Later, Kerry sought to minimize the rift, telling Alexander: "Our differences occurred when we were kids, or at least close to being kids. It was a long time ago, and we both came back and realized that there were a lot of difficulties in the prosecution of that war."

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  #47  
Old 3rd September 2004, 08:31 PM
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In his 2002 book, "Man of the People: The Life of John McCain," Alexander says that the two Vietnam vets finally reconciled in the early 1990s after having "a long - and at times emotional - conversation about Vietnam" during a mutual trip to Kuwait. Later, Kerry sought to minimize the rift, telling Alexander: "Our differences occurred when we were kids, or at least close to being kids. It was a long time ago, and we both came back and realized that there were a lot of difficulties in the prosecution of that war."


well if McCain can set it aside and respect Kerry maybe others should give it a try.

A lot of people spoke against the war. I'm glad they did.
If they hadn't my kids would probably be over there dying for no good reason.
The alternative to dissent is to shut up and let it happen.

Oh and to the protestors,,, Thanks for helping to get me home.
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  #48  
Old 3rd September 2004, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by daidhaid
In his 2002 book, "Man of the People: The Life of John McCain," Alexander says that the two Vietnam vets finally reconciled in the early 1990s after having "a long - and at times emotional - conversation about Vietnam" during a mutual trip to Kuwait. Later, Kerry sought to minimize the rift, telling Alexander: "Our differences occurred when we were kids, or at least close to being kids. It was a long time ago, and we both came back and realized that there were a lot of difficulties in the prosecution of that war."


well if McCain can set it aside and respect Kerry maybe others should give it a try.

A lot of people spoke against the war. I'm glad they did.
If they hadn't my kids would probably be over there dying for no good reason.
The alternative to dissent is to shut up and let it happen.

Oh and to the protestors,,, Thanks for helping to get me home.
Protesting a war is one thing, lying and exagerating about your fellow veterans, and having closed door meetings with the enemy leaders without Government authorization in a foreign country, I call this treason.
Maybe we should forget this too?

How about we remember the Politcal record of Kerry's vote, the one he didn't want to talk about at his convention. His voting against everything we used in the wars. He is really for our military.

By the way, I am glad you are here to debate with. My Uncle died in Vietnam, but didn't fall for 6-8 years later. Cancer, I figure the orange got him. Thanks for your service. I know not many said that.
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  #49  
Old 3rd September 2004, 08:53 PM
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Christ

Originally Posted by daidhaid

well if McCain can set it aside and respect Kerry maybe others should give it a try.

A lot of people spoke against the war. I'm glad they did.
If they hadn't my kids would probably be over there dying for no good reason.
The alternative to dissent is to shut up and let it happen.

Oh and to the protestors,,, Thanks for helping to get me home.
Daidhaid, I respect your service during Vietnam.

I do not nor can not respect Kerry for his actions upon his leaving Vietnam after his four months and twelve days in country.

My eldest son is in the USMC and has been serving his country for eight years. I do not see what he is doing for his country as in vain aka "for no good reason".

I do not see my service to my country during the Vietnam War as in vain aka "for no good reason".

I do not see the service of my Fellow Brother In Arms during the Vietnam War as in vain aka "for no good reason".
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  #50  
Old 4th September 2004, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Billnew
Protesting a war is one thing, lying and exagerating about your fellow veterans, and having closed door meetings with the enemy leaders without Government authorization in a foreign country, I call this treason.
Maybe we should forget this too?
I personally don't think he exagerated or put veterans down. He called attention to the way the war was conducted. He spoke with the over the top flamboyance of the day.
It was a time of excesses on all sides. Rhetoric was heavy and times were hard. The war took a great many who never believed it was right, but were forced to serve.
The atrocities he described were the sorts of things that happened.
He quoted other vets without implicating them in public.
I'll be honest, would not want to be judged today for what happened then.
To many want to say it was all honor, but the only honor I saw there was in the bonds amongst us. What happened in Nam was wrong, or at the very least went wrong. It was pointless and out of control.
The only point was to keep faith with your fellow soldier.
Kerry tried, imperfectly, to make that all clear.
By 71 when he went to the hearings Nam was really a mess.
He wanted to end the war. Our leaders tolerance for atrocities was exposed.
Our leaders military and civilian knew it was degerating out of control.
He wanted the same system that prosecuted Calley to go after the leaders.
He wasn't indicting vets so much as pulling back the covers on what America already knew.
And the talking to the enemy charge.
There he violated law he tried to negotiate a pow release while in France.
North Viet Nam wanted a VVAW contingent to goto the North this would have been a big photo op and serious propoganda, it also would have released POW's probably in 72.
I think it was stupid and illconsidered, the folly of youth. Very controversial at the time, but well intentioned .
Remember the times it was a time of great national conflict America was eating its young.
It was a long time ago for most Americans


How about we remember the Politcal record of Kerry's vote, the one he didn't want to talk about at his convention. His voting against everything we used in the wars. He is really for our military.[/quote]


Yeah well there you have real reasons to vote Bush. If his voting record bothers you more than the current presidents track record then that's a good reason to vote bush in.
I myself would prefer a progressive even radical leader willing to find new solutions.
Jerry Brown, heh heh heh there are many leaders I would choose over Kerry if I were given a choice.
However, there are even more I would choose over George Bush, even his Dad or his Mom.
I'd like McCain.
I'd really like a 3rd. party, run off elections, and no electoral college, and a safe tamperproof election.
I'd also lower the voting age to 16 and get kids to vote before they are disillusioned.

Originally Posted by Billnew
By the way, I am glad you are here to debate with. My Uncle died in Vietnam, but didn't fall for 6-8 years later. Cancer, I figure the orange got him. Thanks for your service. I know not many said that.
Thanks, even though we are in dissagreement on politics we still have much in common..
Sorry about your Uncle you know the casualty count is to low for that war as it does not include guys that died later, as a result.
That's a wrong the government isn't likely to correct, anytime soon.
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