Can we really 'choose' to believe?

jbarcher · #11 30th June 2004, 12:41 PM

I'd like to ask...

Does it really matter? Before you jump in with a "yes", please think--even if God has chosen, say, a certain percentage of people to be saved--so what? Certainly if yes, our view of God might change--but logically speaking, that's all that would change. Eh?

Gabriel · #12 30th June 2004, 12:51 PM

Honestly, the reason it matters to me is that if a person thinks they earned their salvation because they chose Him, they are missing grace and God's sovereignty altogether. God freely gave those whom He chose the gift of salvation. Ephesians tells us that it is not by our works, but by God's will. Let me put it to you this way; If I offer you $10 and I put it on the table and tell you that I offer it freely, but you must reach out and pick it up isn't it by your work completing my work that you become $10 richer? Now, if I wanted to give you $10 and I want you to have it by my work and will, not yours, I would choose you to receive the money, I would place it in your empty wallet and you would love me out of appreciation for my gift freely given.

herev · #13 30th June 2004, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Dad Ernie

Greetings Herev,

I think I said that, didn't I? If not, I agree with you.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I dunno, I think my brain rotated around last night surfing the posts, and has not re-established contact with my fingers.
Take care
God bless

Dad Ernie · #14 30th June 2004, 05:56 PM

Greetings Johnny Be Good,

Originally Posted by Johnny Be Good

But can you answer this one question for me: Can we 'choose' to believe the gospel--or has God set us up for success?

Is the cup half full or half empty? Depends upon your own "world view". Did God set up Adam to fail? Or did He set Adam up to be victorious? I would say the latter. He gave Him food, He gave him an activity, He gave Him a woman to be a helpmeet, He gave Him the "tree of life", and best of all He walked and talked with Adam in the Garden. What more could one ask to achieve "victory"?

*Given an unclouded view of the Gospel, can someone choose evil without any form of deception entering in?

I have already quoted the necessary Roman verses that reveal that man often CHOOSES to disobey God, in fact that is our very nature. But again God chose to give us "victory", by giving us Jesus, who not only took the punishment for our sin, but also gave us power to overcome all evil and sin. We cannot serve two masters. If we love this world more than we love God, then our "father" is the "father of lies and sin" - Satan. If we love God, even more than "life" itself, then we are the sons of God.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

P.S. Yes, we can willfully become deceivers ourselves, it is within our carnal nature to do so.

Wilfred of Ivanhoe · #15 30th June 2004, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Honestly, the reason it matters to me is that if a person thinks they earned their salvation because they chose Him, they are missing grace and God's sovereignty altogether. God freely gave those whom He chose the gift of salvation. Ephesians tells us that it is not by our works, but by God's will. Let me put it to you this way; If I offer you $10 and I put it on the table and tell you that I offer it freely, but you must reach out and pick it up isn't it by your work completing my work that you become $10 richer? Now, if I wanted to give you $10 and I want you to have it by my work and will, not yours, I would choose you to receive the money, I would place it in your empty wallet and you would love me out of appreciation for my gift freely given.

Correct! A proper understanding of regeneration shows us that although faith is ours, that faith springs from the fact that God has first generated us.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life

herev · #16 1st July 2004, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Honestly, the reason it matters to me is that if a person thinks they earned their salvation because they chose Him, they are missing grace and God's sovereignty altogether. God freely gave those whom He chose the gift of salvation. Ephesians tells us that it is not by our works, but by God's will. Let me put it to you this way; If I offer you $10 and I put it on the table and tell you that I offer it freely, but you must reach out and pick it up isn't it by your work completing my work that you become $10 richer? Now, if I wanted to give you $10 and I want you to have it by my work and will, not yours, I would choose you to receive the money, I would place it in your empty wallet and you would love me out of appreciation for my gift freely given.

I dunno,
I appreciate the post, the calvinist view, and the scripture quoted. I struggle with the idea that God would create someone with the intent that they should go to Hell, doesn't seem to fit with His being love (1 JOhn 4:8).
I believe that God knows who is going to hell, but for that to be his intent doesn't jive.
oh, well--more food for thought!

Gabriel · #17 1st July 2004, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by herev

I dunno,
I appreciate the post, the calvinist view, and the scripture quoted. I struggle with the idea that God would create someone with the intent that they should go to Hell, doesn't seem to fit with His being love (1 JOhn 4:8).
I believe that God knows who is going to hell, but for that to be his intent doesn't jive.
oh, well--more food for thought!

Read Romans 9. Notice that He speaks of hating Esau while he was still in the womb. Keep reading until the end of the chapter. After you have read that, post your thoughts here on what it means to be a vessel created for destruction.

The issue you struggle with is fairness. But, what is fair? People are sentenced to prison for crimes they have commited. Is that fair? Yes, but is it good for them? I doubt they think it so. So, what is fair is that people are punished for sin, which we ALL have committed, and the wages of sin is death. So, if you want to be fair we all die. Every single one of us. Now, God chose to show mercy to some of us. So, it works out like this; some get what they deserve, others get mercy. Praise Him that you were made a vessel for glory.

Mr. Good Faith · #18 1st July 2004, 02:25 AM

There is a continuing theological debate between free will vs predestination vs grace vs original sin. The Catholic position is that we can not choose Jesus unless God gives us the grace to believe (have faith). "to everyone is given a measure of grace" . Mustard seed analogy. It is this small measure of grace that gives us the ability to choose of our own free will, because we can choose not to accept him (free will) but we still need God's grace to even allow us to choose.

Mr. G

de Unamuno · #19 1st July 2004, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by herev

So, maybe the question is, 'Is there a sane reason for not accepting Jesus?', or, 'Can a sane, non-deceived person make a choice that is bad for them, or hurts them, when presented with a choice that is good for them and is clearly a more desireable choice?'

You are assuming people choose to deny Christ based on deception. I see two major factors for people denying Him:

1) DECIDING ON THE FACTS: There is no absolute proof to believe conclusively in Christ and in his promises of salvation. Therefore, some people choose against Him, believing the Christian afterlife does not exist.

Although you and I agree many people are deceived into believing Christ is not real, you can't say that all people who disbelieve are being deceived. It's simply a matter of having no conclusive proof either way. If God chose to reveal himself personally to every single human being, then it'd be a different story.

For example, ten satellites are orbiting the Earth. One of them detects an asteroid on a collision course to Earth, while the other 9 satellites show no danger. The reality is that an asteroid really is coming to wipe out all life on Earth, but I choose to believe there is no danger. I am not being deceived. I am simply acting on the available information. Further, there is no intelligent force that is actively trying to deceive me.

2) OTHER ADVANTAGES: There exist other possible gains for choosing sin rather than Christ's salvation. So some people will choose these gains over those promised by Christ.

Choosing sin instead of God is not necessarily a product of deception. Yes, I think deception is a tool employed by the Enemy to push us to sin, but sin itself can have its perceived advantages to a free-willed individual. I think we can all agree that, in many ways, it can be easier to live a life of sin rather than to continually discipline oneself to always choose God.

Certainly, at one time, Satan himself commanded all hosts of God's army. He was favored by God, provided everything... yet he ultimately fell by his own free will. He didn't suffer a deceiver, there simply wasn't one. There was just the power of choosing against God. By choosing against God, Satan gained a certain justification. He gained a kingdom of his own. He established his independence from God regardless of the price of his eternal banishment outside of His presence. It just shows you that God isn't the only rational choice, he is simply the best choice for a real, living heart. Some people put less weight on their living heart and more importance on sustaining their own pride, as a common example. Yes, this choice may hurt them (from our perspective), but only if you start with the Christian presupposition.

So to your question, "Can I choose to change my belief?", my answer is yes, you can - just like Satan changed his belief strictly by virtue of wanting to, or just like a Christian converts to Buddhism because they perceive the facts to be more congruent in the latter. In either case, we don't have to assume deception.

IMO, it all comes down to the beautiful, awesome, and dangerous gift of free will.

Cheers!

Dad Ernie · #20 1st July 2004, 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. Good Faith

There is a continuing theological debate between free will vs predestination vs grace vs original sin. The Catholic position is that we can not choose Jesus unless God gives us the grace to believe (have faith). "to everyone is given a measure of grace" . Mustard seed analogy. It is this small measure of grace that gives us the ability to choose of our own free will, because we can choose not to accept him (free will) but we still need God's grace to even allow us to choose.

Greetings Mr. Good Faith,

Let's take a look at this verse:

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Many conclude erroneously that this is speaking ONLY of believers, but this is not so. Please consider this scriptural definition of "faith":

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Now associate that verse with this verse:

Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

I believe you can agree that God has the "ultimate" of faith, for everything He says, He will perform, it will not go void.

Now consider that we are made in "His image". We have the capacity to think, to reason, to love, to hate AND to "have faith". Now recall the definition of "faith" from Hebrews 11:1, this applied to Adam just as well as it applies to a Christian or even an unbeliever today. Faith is not a substance that God metes out, but as we exercise it, it DOES increase, re: the faith of the size of a mustard seed. Faith requires an object of the faith in order to be considered faith. True "faith" is in God, but man continues to place his faith in everything BUT God.

Now let us consider one more verse:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Sorry, two verses.

Anyway, It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is God's "power unto salvation". Here is the process we each go through IF we are to be saved:

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

If the one that is sent is anointed of God, then the preaching of The Gospel of Jesus Christ will "save". I have never known anyone who can stand before Christ and not bow down and serve Him.

So it is that "measure of faith" that the Gospel quickens to establish it firmly in Jesus Christ.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie