i don't even know if i'm Catholic anymore

JoabAnias · #21 16th April 2008, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by fragmentsofdreams

Canon Law can be quite heavy-handed at times. It may just be best for you to ignore it.

You should read again. The legalisms are what she is asking for. Conscience isn't relative to truth percieved and if contrary to the infallible Church is no truth at all. Mercy and Justice go hand in hand in revelation. Its where the balance is found and the freedom Christ won for us is real. One can justify any atrocity with false mercy. To insinuate otherwise is propagating the confusion that is causing the havoc. We are called to be informed not follow our senses.

fragmentsofdreams · #22 16th April 2008, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by JoabAnias

You should read again. The legalisms are what she is asking for. Conscience isn't relative to truth percieved and if contrary to the infallible Church is no truth at all. Mercy and Justice go hand in hand in revelation. Its where the balance is found and the freedom Christ won for us is real. One can justify any atrocity with false mercy. To insinuate otherwise is propagating the confusion that is causing the havoc. We are called to be informed not follow our senses.

The bishops have come to the conclusion that certain practices are good. They have created a list of things they consider to be the minimum that people should do. To encourage people to follow this standard, they have attached a stiff penalty to not complying. This last part is bothering Kimber and seems to be having the effect of discouraging her from following the standard. Because of this, I encouraged her to ignore the penalties for not following the standard and instead focus on what is good in these practices. Mass is far better if one is seeking communion with God and one's community than if one is merely getting one's weekly Sunday obligation card stamped.

JoabAnias · #23 16th April 2008, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by fragmentsofdreams

The bishops have come to the conclusion that certain practices are good. They have created a list of things they consider to be the minimum that people should do.

Have you a copy?

To encourage people to follow this standard, they have attached a stiff penalty to not complying.

What penalties?
I don't even think they police themselves well enough.

This last part is bothering Kimber and seems to be having the effect of discouraging her from following the standard. Because of this, I encouraged her to ignore the penalties for not following the standard and instead focus on what is good in these practices.

Ah, I follow that much better. The problem I see is the things being permitted aren't given any such stamp of approval and some are in defiance of the norms of the Church.

Permissiveness is not license and as such we cannot unlearn what we know already. This isn't said to make anyone scrupulous. We have a responsibility to be informed as I said before. The question is an appeal for said information so it was answered for that purpose.

We already have one indult as a result of permissiveness that I am aware of and I hope to see no others. Canada isn't even using the correct Vulgate.

The USCCB is not to be a New Rome no matter who would like it.

There is a little thing called the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in Rome that even the USCCB's Redemptionis Sacramentum is subject to be approved by.

Mass is far better if one is seeking communion with God and one's community than if one is merely getting one's weekly Sunday obligation card stamped.

Well yes of course. Knowing the obligation just the same can also be helpful in getting there when one is having a crisis of faith though I admit without what you said it is probably in vain.

Oh Lord help my unbelief and help me to see.

benedictaoo · #24 16th April 2008, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by kimber1

allright let me start at the moment when things started to go downhill.

like i said both my husband and i had lost our jobs within a couple months of each other. we were seriously struggling to make ends meet living on what little unemployment paid. gas had started to skyrocket so i had to budget my money harder. i could either have money for gas to go look for a job or money for gas to go to Mass. i needed the job more was all i could come up with.

so i stopped going to Mass. was angry at God for the "why now? why me??" thing. i was already upset that my sponsor had bailed on me. and not just that but lied to me bc he's a dr. where i used to work and we ran into each other constantly and he'd always say he was going to send me something to read that would help me some or would call me and we'd talk but he never followed thru. ever.

so in the meantime i'm questioning in a huge way the whole "go to Mass or go to hell" thing because i KNEW that this was a circumstance that God would understand but it made me question alot more and say that things WERE better and i could go to Mass regularly, if i was just wore out from overtime at work and didn't go, how did that end up meaning if i croaked the next day that i'd be hellbound? that is something i've yet to be able to move past.

i want proof. i want someone to show me in writing that this was a "law" or "rule" back in the day. i mean WAAAY back in the day. i realize it says in the Bible that we';re to gather and worship. i KNOW that. but it doesn't say we HAVE to or we're hellbound.

We are only hell bound if we rebel and willfully reject the Church and the Eucharist.

Kim, you need the Eucharist- you can not sustain a true spiritual life with out and that is why you need to go back.

Jesus said, He who eats His flesh and drinks His blood has life in him and will be raised on the last day.

fragmentsofdreams · #25 16th April 2008, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by JoabAnias

Have you a copy?

I cannot list everything the bishops have declared an obligation that must be followed or else one will fall into mortal sin.

What penalties?
I don't even think they police themselves well enough.

Declaring that failing to do things is a mortal sin is creating a penalty.

Ah, I follow that much better. The problem I see is the things being permitted aren't given any such stamp of approval and some are in defiance of the norms of the Church.

Permissiveness is not license and as such we cannot unlearn what we know already. This isn't said to make anyone scrupulous. We have a responsibility to be informed as I said before. The question is an appeal for said information so it was answered for that purpose.

We already have one indult as a result of permissiveness that I am aware of and I hope to see no others. Canada isn't even using the correct Vulgate.

The USCCB is not to be a New Rome no matter who would like it.

There is a little thing called the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in Rome that even the USCCB's Redemptionis Sacramentum is subject to be approved by.

You seem to be discussing liturgical norms here. I've been responding to Kimber's problems with people telling her that if she misses Mass she will go to Hell.

Well yes of course. Knowing the obligation just the same can also be helpful in getting there when one is having a crisis of faith though I admit without what you said it is probably in vain.

Oh Lord help my unbelief and help me to see.

It has different effects on different people. For some, it may motivate them to go to Mass and receive its grace even when they have lost sight of why they go. For others, it might cause fear to overshadow and taint the grace of the Mass.

JoabAnias · #26 17th April 2008, 02:52 AM

Originally Posted by fragmentsofdreams

I cannot list everything the bishops have declared an obligation that must be followed or else one will fall into mortal sin.

Have the Bishops declared them though?

Haven't they come from God and are there really that many that they would be considered overwhelming?

Mercy and culpability are the keys aren't they?

Declaring that failing to do things is a mortal sin is creating a penalty.

I see it as clarifying what God says. Under the old law there were 612 Mizvot, you must admit that is greatly decreased to what, maybe 11 now?

You seem to be discussing liturgical norms here. I've been responding to Kimber's problems with people telling her that if she misses Mass she will go to Hell.

Oh, I see. Yes I understand. I wasn't really discussing but responding to her specific inquiry. I seemed she was asking for the black and white reasons she should go back as a help to get there as if the motivations of permissives was not cutting the mustard for her.

It has different effects on different people. For some, it may motivate them to go to Mass and receive its grace even when they have lost sight of why they go. For others, it might cause fear to overshadow and taint the grace of the Mass.

Agreed and believe it is so.

Peace.

fragmentsofdreams · #27 17th April 2008, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by JoabAnias

Have the Bishops declared them though?

Haven't they come from God and are there really that many that they would be considered overwhelming?

Mercy and culpability are the keys aren't they?

It used to be that violating the Lenten abstinence was considered a mortal sin. This is the type of thing I am talking about.

I see it as clarifying what God says. Under the old law there were 612 Mizvot, you must admit that is greatly decreased to what, maybe 11 now?

We seem to be discussing different things. I am talking about things that are only a sin because the bishops have said that we should do something. These things, such as missing a particular feast day or eating meat on a certain Friday, are not inherently sinful. They are only considered sinful because the bishops have demanded obedience under penalty of mortal sin.

Oh, I see. Yes I understand. I wasn't really discussing but responding to her specific inquiry. I seemed she was asking for the black and white reasons she should go back as a help to get there as if the motivations of permissives was not cutting the mustard for her.

Agreed and believe it is so.

Peace.

Peace

kimber1 · #28 20th April 2008, 09:41 AM

sorry it's been a bit but i've switched shifts at work, now working night shift and trying to get my sleep schedule adhusted has been for the birds.

okay i've been reading the Dies Domini and what i'm getting from it is that somehow the Eucharist "means more" on Sunday because the whole community is gathered on the day of the week when the Resurrection happened. okay i "get" that that day is more special bc of the Resurrection but doesn't the Eucharist symbol Jesus' body and blood just as much on wednesday as Sunday? i mean, it doesn't lose it's meaning just because the day of the week isn't as important. right??

something else i'm getting from it is that okay i can see completely why back in the dya they allgathered and were all on fire for celebrating on Sunday. i mean, let'd face it. i'm sure God seemed much closer to them back then. Jesus had just risen. so i can understand the strong desire to gather and worship. i'm sure were i back in those days i woudln't be having this problem.so correct me if i'm wrong but it seems later on as time went on people became a bit more lax so say around that council in 300 it was decreed that missing 3 times in a month got you excommunicated. WHICH shows ME that it was MAN who came up with this rule. not God. tell me i'm wrong.

see it's the legalism of Catholicism that's holding me down. i GET that i would likely feel closer to God and my community if i went every Sunday. of course i don't see why going on wednesday's (something i used to LOVE to do simply because i felt i could focus on God better for the simple fact that everyone and their brother wasn't there) isn't just as good. i understand the significance of Sunday. i just don't understand why i can't be as close to God on wed. as sun. know what i mean? and i can't get past that God Himself never said if i didn't go on sun. i'd go to hell. THAT is what bothers me.

so the question is, how do i get past it?

JoabAnias · #29 20th April 2008, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by fragmentsofdreams

We seem to be discussing different things. I am talking about things that are only a sin because the bishops have said that we should do something. These things, such as missing a particular feast day or eating meat on a certain Friday, are not inherently sinful. They are only considered sinful because the bishops have demanded obedience under penalty of mortal sin.

I know of no such thing. Without examples I couldn't address it further.

The commandments aren't from a Bishop but from God.

Seems like your trying to deny the existence of sin.

JoabAnias · #30 20th April 2008, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by kimber1

sorry it's been a bit but i've switched shifts at work, now working night shift and trying to get my sleep schedule adhusted has been for the birds.

okay i've been reading the Dies Domini and what i'm getting from it is that somehow the Eucharist "means more" on Sunday because the whole community is gathered on the day of the week when the Resurrection happened. okay i "get" that that day is more special bc of the Resurrection but doesn't the Eucharist symbol Jesus' body and blood just as much on wednesday as Sunday? i mean, it doesn't lose it's meaning just because the day of the week isn't as important. right??

One has to consider God's intent for the Sabbath. Not the specific day of the week. We keep Sunday Tradition however there are feasible times that is not possible and the Sabbath can be kept on any other day without sin.

The essence is a day a week devoted to the Lord.

something else i'm getting from it is that okay i can see completely why back in the dya they allgathered and were all on fire for celebrating on Sunday. i mean, let'd face it. i'm sure God seemed much closer to them back then. Jesus had just risen. so i can understand the strong desire to gather and worship. i'm sure were i back in those days i woudln't be having this problem.so correct me if i'm wrong but it seems later on as time went on people became a bit more lax so say around that council in 300 it was decreed that missing 3 times in a month got you excommunicated. WHICH shows ME that it was MAN who came up with this rule. not God. tell me i'm wrong.

I am not aware of any such rule. The objective is the commandment of God to keep the Sabbath Holy. From what you said before you had legitimate reasons for not attending the weekly liturgy. You must ask yourself if those reasons are still legitimate and or beyond your control. That is where culpability of mortal sin is. Examine your consceince.

see it's the legalism of Catholicism that's holding me down. i GET that i would likely feel closer to God and my community if i went every Sunday. of course i don't see why going on wednesday's (something i used to LOVE to do simply because i felt i could focus on God better for the simple fact that everyone and their brother wasn't there) isn't just as good. i understand the significance of Sunday. i just don't understand why i can't be as close to God on wed. as sun. know what i mean? and i can't get past that God Himself never said if i didn't go on sun. i'd go to hell. THAT is what bothers me.

It is just as good to recieve the Eucharist no matter what day of the week it is. However, we are part of a family and do not want to be estranged from them for selfish or negligent reasons. The Church does not say you will go to hell if you don't go on Sunday either. She says if you can you should. If you can't then you are not responsible. Which is it for you? Do you think Dr.'s, Police, Soldiers and all others doing good works prohibiting them from attending the Sunday liturgy will loose their souls from no fault of their own? God is not a mean God. It is only our turning from Him that subjects us to hell. God sends no one there, we do it to ourselves. What is your reason for not attending? Can it be overcome? If it can then don't wait. Your soul is at stake. Know that you are going there to meet Jesus, not for any other predominant reasons though there are always other benefits for being in His presence and recieving His body and blood.

so the question is, how do i get past it?

Pray for understanding that there are usually exceptions but not all exceptions are honest.

Are your sure your hung up on going Sunday because of the legalities or because of weakness of the flesh. If it is then go during the week instead. I suspect just going period has become the problem. Complacency and indifference begets more of the same. Its a trap we all suffer from time to time.

I am no priest sister but perhaps you need to see one, tell him honestly if you just don't feel like going to Church any more and hope you hear Jesus voice speaking to you through him on what you could do about it.

Confession is the path to spiritual healing.

Peace.