How is a person saved?

DanielJamesSimon · #41 14th July 2004, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Droobie

What is wrong with salvation through works?

Ask Paul. Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

I voted "through faith alone", but LynneClomina had a very good point - by grace we are saved through faith. Grace is the first step. I believe we are saved when God predestines us to be saved, so we have been saved since before Creation, in a sense.

Faith In God · #42 14th July 2004, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by DanielJamesSimon

Ask Paul. Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

I voted "through faith alone", but LynneClomina had a very good point - by grace we are saved through faith. Grace is the first step. I believe we are saved when God predestines us to be saved, so we have been saved since before Creation, in a sense.

*sigh* but then, you have no reason to witness...so i choose not to think like that.

not to start a debate, but only to warn not to let yourself become slack in witnessing on a belief of a technicality.

Krystina661 · #43 14th July 2004, 08:13 PM

Through faith and works..

DanielJamesSimon · #44 14th July 2004, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by butxifxnot

*sigh* but then, you have no reason to witness...so i choose not to think like that.

not to start a debate, but only to warn not to let yourself become slack in witnessing on a belief of a technicality.

Valid point, but what better witness of how much God loves you than to say that God chose you despite your sin?

Read Ephesians 2:9; then ask yourself, is not being saved through works a reason not to witness?

Paul believed that he was saved by grace through faith alone, and not of works. Was he a good witness or what?

This is a technicality, but a very important one. If one believes that he can be saved through works, then I'm afraid he is in for disappointment.

Trust me, I won't slack off witnessing.

Brother Charlie · #45 14th July 2004, 09:13 PM

Both faith and works are necessary if possible for salvation. The only time the words "faith alone" appear in the bible is in James, where he tells us that faith without works is dead

Inquisitior · #46 14th July 2004, 09:15 PM

The problem with works is that implies that what Jesus did on the cross was not enough. The idea that through works, we can 'do' something towards our salvation and our Lord's sacrifice only did a little to get us partly there.

Remy12 · #47 14th July 2004, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by DanielJamesSimon

Valid point, but what better witness of how much God loves you than to say that God chose you despite your sin?

Read Ephesians 2:9; then ask yourself, is not being saved through works a reason not to witness?

Paul believed that he was saved by grace through faith alone, and not of works. Was he a good witness or what?

This is a technicality, but a very important one. If one believes that he can be saved through works, then I'm afraid he is in for disappointment.

Trust me, I won't slack off witnessing.

You keep quoting Ephesians, but your misrepresenting what Paul meant. He is speaking of the Mosaic Law.

If you follow your line of reasoning, then the Bible was speaking gibberish when it says that faith without works is dead.

DanielJamesSimon · #48 14th July 2004, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Abba

Both faith and works are necessary if possible for salvation. The only time the words "faith alone" appear in the bible is in James, where he tells us that faith without works is dead

Good point. However, if you read on, you'll find that it talks about our conduct, and how works is a fruit of faith. Faith and works do go hand in hand, for sure, but this passage in James does not talk about salvation and how we are saved.

Again I appeal to Ephesians 2:8-9.

Also, look at Romans 10:8-9: "... 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' - that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;"

We have confession that Jesus is Lord - an act of faith, not works. We have belief that God raised Him from the dead - again, faith, not works!

So Abba, your point was valid because works are an important result of faith, as seen in James (and various other places). However, as far as salvation by itself goes, we are saved a) by grace and b) through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.

DanielJamesSimon · #49 14th July 2004, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Remy12

You keep quoting Ephesians, but your misrepresenting what Paul meant. He is speaking of the Mosaic Law.

Paul was not speaking of the Mosaic Law. He did not even mention the Mosaic Law in the entire letter up to and including this point.

Also see Romans. After saying in Romans 10:4 that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" and talking a bit about that, he says that the two things, the only two things needed for salvation are confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised Him from the dead. He does not say, "if you (etc.).... you might be saved" or "you will be saved if your works are good".

In fact, the Mosaic Law was the opposite. The only way to be saved from sin then was to either keep the Law entirely or have a priest make a sacrifice for you. If anything, salvation was through works without faith in the time of the Mosaic Law!

Please tell me how Paul was talking about the Mosaic Law in Ephesians.

Originally Posted by Remy12

If you follow your line of reasoning, then Paul was speaking gibberish when he said that faith without works is dead.

Read previous post.

Remy12 · #50 14th July 2004, 09:36 PM

Daniel,

By works, Paul is speaks of the Mosaic Law.

Works and Faith are equally important.

But in the end we are only saved by Grace.