Hi OWG. Thanks for the reply. YOUR QUOTE: Interesting. I tend to believe that God created the material universe as an "estate" and "habitation" (Jude) for Lucifer and the angels long ago. The later casting down of Lucifer may have begun the destruction of earth's surface. I see Genesis One as not only the renewal of the earth's surface but a metaphor for the greater "restitution of all things": the restoration of God's damaged spiritual kingdom.
I believe that Hell is on the same physical/spiritual place that Eden is situated but Eden is protected by God’s Light whereas Hell is still full of dark deep water. So your quote from Jude 1:6 “And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” Describes that part physical/spiritual prison and as I have said before, I am not sure if the demons are physically chained or because they are also now part physical from falling from the purely spiritual Heaven that is God’s abode, they are prevented from entering Heaven.
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Hi OWG. Thanks for the reply. YOUR QUOTE: Interesting. I tend to believe that God created the material universe as an "estate" and "habitation" (Jude) for Lucifer and the angels long ago. The later casting down of Lucifer may have begun the destruction of earth's surface. I see Genesis One as not only the renewal of the earth's surface but a metaphor for the greater "restitution of all things": the restoration of God's damaged spiritual kingdom.
I believe that Hell is on the same physical/spiritual place that Eden is situated but Eden is protected by God’s Light whereas Hell is still full of dark deep water. So your quote from Jude 1:6 “And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” Describes that part physical/spiritual prison and as I have said before, I am not sure if the demons are physically chained or because they are also now part physical from falling from the purely spiritual Heaven that is God’s abode, they are prevented from entering Heaven.
Lot's of speculation about this subject. My working theory goes like this:
The material universe, and especially the earth, was made for Lucifer and the angels. God provided a sensual world for them to enjoy; taste, smell, touch, and all the wonderful sensations to be enjoyed in a perfect material creation. How far these pleasures extended I do not care to speculate. And they were given perfect fleshly bodies with which to enjoy it. These bodies didn't suffer corruption as there was probably no (animal) death at that time.
This was their first estate, and their habitation. An estate is: something of value, and, you own it. Habitation is of course, your home. God had fashioned a wonderful dwelling place for them and had given it to them.
That all changed when Lucifer and his angels rebelled and sought to elevate their earthly kingdom to the same plane as God's, seeking equality with God himself. They were cast out of heaven and back to the earth where indeed it became a prison. Destruction and death, by the hand of God, entered the earth. Their former incorruptable bodies then died. Death had entered the universe for the first time, fashioned by God as initial punishment for the rebellion.
Being spirit beings they could not die as did their material bodies. For a time they were 'disembodied' spirits. (We read much more about them in the NT.) But God did fashion new bodies for them-the monsters that are found in the fossil record-bodies that reflected what they had become in God's eyes.
These bodies too were destroyed in the continuing cataclysms still being wrought in the earth, to be replaced by God with yet more grotesque forms, until finally God set about to repair the damage. That story continues starting in Genesis One.
owg
Just a side note: I believe that the flood of Noah was the last of many continuous upheaval events that destroyed most or all life on earth from time to time. I'm also thinking that God, knowing that the flood was coming, directed human events toward a date with (destiny) that event. It would of course be one more event that destroyed evil, and once again disembodied the spirits imprisoned here. This of course means that the new creatures that these spirits inhabit is man himself.
That the "blood of man would be required at the hand of beasts" just after the flood is evidence that God allowed these evil spirits to once again inhabit animals and thereby change their previously gentle nature to the dangerous nature that is so evident in many species.
Last edited by oldwiseguy; 13th March 2008 at 01:51 AM.
What the Bible says is concrete. It says God created grass on the 3rd day, and the Sun on the 4th day. Grass can go a whole day without Sun and live, so nothing is wrong with the order of events.
It is also possible that God meant for grass to grow and live without light from the Sun, but after God created the Sun the grass saw fit to use His light to feed its life source, just as humans do with His word.
Lot's of speculation about this subject. My working theory goes like this:
The material universe, and especially the earth, was made for Lucifer and the angels. God provided a sensual world for them to enjoy; taste, smell, touch, and all the wonderful sensations to be enjoyed in a perfect material creation. How far these pleasures extended I do not care to speculate. And they were given perfect fleshly bodies with which to enjoy it. These bodies didn't suffer corruption as there was probably no (animal) death at that time.
This was their first estate, and their habitation. An estate is: something of value, and, you own it. Habitation is of course, your home. God had fashioned a wonderful dwelling place for them and had given it to them.
That all changed when Lucifer and his angels rebelled and sought to elevate their earthly kingdom to the same plane as God's, seeking equality with God himself. They were cast out of heaven and back to the earth where indeed it became a prison. Destruction and death, by the hand of God, entered the earth. Their former incorruptable bodies then died. Death had entered the universe for the first time, fashioned by God as initial punishment for the rebellion.
owg
species.
Hi owg. Wow. My views are different. I believe that there was a rebelion in a purely spiritual place, which was his first Estate ( and of huge value), let us call it "pure Heaven", God beat Satan and his fallen angels and to imprison them He created a ball of extramly dense matter as seen in Genesis 1:1. With this matter he created another heavenly place which was part spiritual and part physical. God then changed their form so that they were no longer purely spiritual beings , but bound by the chains of physicality to that new heaven. This hidden world was covered with a mystical deep water that was a hidding place for the demons. Then God decided to take away a portion of this "place", He created dry land, breathed onto some of it and created Adam, he then created the Garden of Eden for Adam to live in and tend. Then on day 4, God took the rest of the "matter that he created to build a prison for Satan, and with a "Big Bang" created our Universe. Then over billions of years our world evolved to what we have today.
However, about 5800 years ago Adam sinned and fell from a partly physical partly spiritual Eden, changed form through death and arrived as a adult on this Earth, and in doing so was the father of the sons of God.
The rest is history.
Except for the Flood, I am still forming my views on this one. But here is a tantelizing question could God have been only targeting the geographical area where the sons of God were living? After all it was them that angered God; the ark is still out on this one.
Last edited by cleminson; 13th March 2008 at 07:53 AM.
Except for the Flood, I am still forming my views on this one. But here is a tantelizing question could God have been only targeting the geographical area where the sons of God were living? After all it was them that angered God; the ark is still out on this one.
I don't believe that man's domain was that limited. I think man had migrated all over the place by Noah's time. A worldwide flood would insure that God 'got 'em all'.
owg
Last edited by oldwiseguy; 13th March 2008 at 01:54 PM.
I don't believe that man's domain was that limited. I think man had migrated all over the place by Noah's time. A worldwide flood would insure that God 'got 'em all'.
owg
As I have already said, as far as I am concerned "the boat" is still out on this one. Though, if it was a global flood, I do have a slight problem with the speed of animal repopulation in 4400 years. Would it spoil your beliefs if it was only the sons of God that were wiped out, in a localised area?
Last edited by cleminson; 14th March 2008 at 06:37 AM.
Reason: Grammar
The fact that the light on day one caused the distinction between day and night indicates that it was the sun shining in full strength on one side of the earth only, which causes the opposite side of the earth to lay in darkness.
Wow! That's really inspired.
Makes me wonder if things existed in a state before time...
John says all things were created through Christ and Christ is timeless, so...
EDIT: Time as we know it is based on the revolution of the universe around the earth (which presumably began on day four)
Last edited by Gottservant; 20th March 2008 at 05:05 AM.
Makes me wonder if things existed in a state before time...
John says all things were created through Christ and Christ is timeless, so...
EDIT: Time as we know it is based on the revolution of the universe around the earth (which presumably began on day four)
Wow I have made contact with a Geocentricist!!! Surely as rare as Flat Earthists. Though I am not a Geocentricist I should not laugh too loudly at this for in 1975, the world-renowned astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle, threw an intellectual spanner into the works when he with “tongue in cheek”, appeared to support the theoretical possibility of a geocentric Universe, when he made this observation in his work “Astronomy and Cosmology”, "We know that the difference between a heliocentric theory and a geocentric theory is one of relative motion only, and that such a difference has no physical significance."
Most Christian today, including myself, would think that an Earth centric Universe was ridiculous, even though there are no scriptures that deny this theory and appear to be sixty-seven that support it.
Most Christian today, including myself, would think that an Earth centric Universe was ridiculous, even though there are no scriptures that deny this theory and appear to be sixty-seven that support it.
You are assuming that you can define the universe as a predetermined model. But if the universe could be defined thus, how could there be free will? As such, the only thing meaningful is to make the most meaningful place in the universe (the only place we can live) the center.
Linear Mode
