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Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.

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  #21  
Old 14th November 2003, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by roadie432002
look at outer space.we dont even know how large it is.does space end?if it does whats on the other side.if a big bang caused it all where did the material that caused the big bang come from?what made it blow up?i have never known of an accidential uncontrolled explosion creating anything but destruction. just a few thoughts.
There are answers to these questions, roadie. But you are not correctly formulating the Big Bang....its not like a giant atomic bomb or something. Let me try to give you the non-technical version of it:

The general concensus is that the universe began as a very tiny 'piece' of space and time. A tremendous amount of energy was bound to this space. Some kind of event caused the expansion of this space into the universe we have now. (And the theories are not clear on the first cause...although there are some proposals on the table).

Where did the material come from? Well, Einstein tells us that matter and energy are interchangeable. If you have alot of energy, then matter can appear as the energy is transformed into it. This is not science fiction. We have reproduced such conditions in particle accelerators, and we see lots of different kinds of matter particles form from energetic collisions.

While the big bang should not be characterized as an explosion, you should know that it does have some features in common with one. You mentioned 'destruction'...well, not exactly...but the universe is less ordered than it was before the expansion. If you think about what happens when a firework explodes, the universe today (the galaxies, etc) are somewhat similar (although the firework analogy is really not a good one at all...but it illustrates the point).

Remember that the Big Bang does not disprove God, rather it simply seems to be the tool He used for creation.
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  #22  
Old 14th November 2003, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Chi_Cygni
I am still waiting for a refutation of the two posts I made on falsifying a young Universe. Whats up YEC's.
I've been on these boards for over a year and that's par for course. Not to say that *all* YECs shy away from debate and discussion about topics raised, but the majority stay silent.

Part of the issue I think, is the fact that a number of non-creationists here are actual scientists, whereas I don't think any YEC scientists have stepped in the fray (at least, none with schooling relevant to the discussions). So, you get people who are trying to argue YEC, but are handicapped by the fact they just don't have the depth of knowledge of others with degrees relevant to the topics at hand. Hence, they quickly get in over their heads and end up floundering.

Something else that comes to mind is a reference or quote I saw attributed to Dawkins that stated that creationists only tend to read material by other creationists. So, they're out of the loop when it comes to dealing with material not covered by their creationist sources. The fact that we see creationists bringing up PRATT lists, yet ignoring other material raised by non-creationists, speaks of this phenomenon.
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Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. - Botanical Society of America's Statement on Evolution
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  #23  
Old 14th November 2003, 02:06 PM
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This isn't an exact quotation because I added paragraphs and grammar to make the thing readable before working out a response. The words are the same though.

Originally Posted by roadie432002
Some thoughts about the theory of evolution.

The bible says God created everything. How do I know the bible is true? The bible says the life is in the blood. Science did not understand that until fairly recently. The bible talks about germs, and washing in running water and covering food to keep germs off, and to avoid contact with dead bodies. Germs were not known about until after the civil war. The bible talks about how rain is formed. The bible talks about the circle of the Earth(round).
I would like some references for these, as this kind of claim is invariably based on a little 'creative interpretation' in my personal experience. And the Earth is not circular.

But the most important proof is how the word of God changed my life from the inside out.
People say the same about the word of Allah. Or the word of their cult leader. Proves nothing.

Science says we evolved from a simple cell. Have you seen the cell mapped? It is complex and shows design, not chance.
That's because modern cells (like you have seen mapped) are 4 billion years of evolution more sophisticated than the original simple cells, which were little more than a sack of chemicals.

If we are just all accidents and animals why do all cultures have a built in desire to worship something?
Possible Christian POV:
We aren't an 'accident'. God created evolution to perform his will. maybe that is why cultures desire ot worship something.

My POV:
Inventing spirits and gods was the only way to explain certain phenomena before the advent of science. Those religions clever enough to seperate their God(s) from science survive into the modern world (Hint, hint)

Apes dont worship. Where are the missing links? Seen any talking apes?
Me, you, and all the other posters here are talking apes. And we have plenty of progressions of earlier apes becoming more human-shaped, just because one fossil hasn't been found yet doesn't invalidate the whole thing.

Or humans with wings?
No. Why should I have seen them?

If we all evolved from so called simple cells why are there still simple cells here?
If my mother gave birth to me why is she still here? The evolution of some members of a species into another species does not necessarily entail the destruction of the original species.

If you believe the theory of evolution you will believe that with the passage of time all is possible. If I throw a handfull of junk in a field, a million years from now that junk has evolved into a watch!
No. If you believe the strawman (fake) version of evolution that you have been misled (probably not knowingly) into believing then you believe that. But the real version of evolution is nothing like that.

I dont think so, and a watch is a lot less complex than the so called simple cell!! Give credit where credit is due. All creation is far to complex and interwoven to have been an accident.
It developed complexity from simple beginnings.

Look at outer space. We dont even know how large it is. Does space end? If it does whats on the other side. If a big bang caused it all where did the material that caused the big bang come from? What made it blow up? I have never known of an accidential uncontrolled explosion creating anything but destruction. Just a few thoughts.
The above paragraph has nothing to do with evolution at all. That is cosmology, and a matter for another thread. Why not start one to dispute the big bang, and try out this new fangled 'punctuation' idea too?
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  #24  
Old 14th November 2003, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete Harcoff
Part of the issue I think, is the fact that a number of non-creationists here are actual scientists, whereas I don't think any YEC scientists have stepped in the fray (at least, none with schooling relevant to the discussions).
There are YEC scientists? When did this happen?
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  #25  
Old 14th November 2003, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by PhantomLlama
My POV:
Inventing spirits and gods was the only way to explain certain phenomena before the advent of science. Those religions clever enough to seperate their God(s) from science survive into the modern world (Hint, hint)
The rest of your arguments are valid. But this one puts you on par with roadie since, like his view of science, your view of religion seems nothing more than dissmissive and speculative. (albeit roadie isn't characterizing religion very well either)

I realize that you have qualified it as a 'POV', and there's nothing wrong with that. But you should know that this is the domain where the atheists start looking as uninformed about theology as the YEC's are about science.

This comment stood out to me simply because the rest of them were on the money.
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  #26  
Old 14th November 2003, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
The rest of your arguments are valid. But this one puts you on par with roadie since, like his view of science, your view of religion seems nothing more than dissmissive and speculative. (albeit roadie isn't characterizing religion very well either)

I realize that you have qualified it as a 'POV', and there's nothing wrong with that. But you should know that this is the domain where the atheists start looking as uninformed about theology as the YEC's are about science.

This comment stood out to me simply because the rest of them were on the money.
You are right to point out that the idea is purely speculative. It is merely the best explanation I can think of for the emergence of religion that does not involve a God. I hope I didn't give the impression of claiming to have any definite knowledge or authority in the area.

On the other hand, thanks for the support.
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"Teaching the pagan religion of evolutionism is a waste of valuable class time and textbook space. It is also one of the reasons American kids don't test as well in science as kids in other parts of the world."
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  #27  
Old 14th November 2003, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PhantomLlama
This isn't an exact quotation because I added paragraphs and grammar to make the thing readable before working out a response. The words are the same though.


I would like some references for these, as this kind of claim is invariably based on a little 'creative interpretation' in my personal experience. And the Earth is not circular.


People say the same about the word of Allah. Or the word of their cult leader. Proves nothing.


That's because modern cells (like you have seen mapped) are 4 billion years of evolution more sophisticated than the original simple cells, which were little more than a sack of chemicals.


Possible Christian POV:
We aren't an 'accident'. God created evolution to perform his will. maybe that is why cultures desire ot worship something.

My POV:
Inventing spirits and gods was the only way to explain certain phenomena before the advent of science. Those religions clever enough to seperate their God(s) from science survive into the modern world (Hint, hint)


Me, you, and all the other posters here are talking apes. And we have plenty of progressions of earlier apes becoming more human-shaped, just because one fossil hasn't been found yet doesn't invalidate the whole thing.


No. Why should I have seen them?


If my mother gave birth to me why is she still here? The evolution of some members of a species into another species does not necessarily entail the destruction of the original species.


No. If you believe the strawman (fake) version of evolution that you have been misled (probably not knowingly) into believing then you believe that. But the real version of evolution is nothing like that.


It developed complexity from simple beginnings.


The above paragraph has nothing to do with evolution at all. That is cosmology, and a matter for another thread. Why not start one to dispute the big bang, and try out this new fangled 'punctuation' idea too?
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  #28  
Old 14th November 2003, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Raydar
You will get more flys with honey than with vinegar
True, but if you rip their wings off, then they'll eat whatever you give them...
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  #29  
Old 14th November 2003, 04:43 PM
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read Lev 12-15 re sanitation and hyguine.this deals with germs.read Lev 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."read Job 36:27-29.evaporation and condension cycles.t doesnt matter to me how old the universe is.God created it all.one thousand years our time is one day in the lords time.
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  #30  
Old 14th November 2003, 04:53 PM
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also PL when one comes to saving faith in God you are indwelled with the Holy Spirit.the Holy Spirit changes you inside.does allah do that.apparently not.Christians do not think its ok to kill those who are not christians.We do not practice suicide bombing.The only way is to reason together and plant the seeds of truth and leave it in Gods hands.
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