This bugs me...the chosen people

lucaspa · #71 10th August 2004, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by oworm

That’s a very good question

Firstly, he glorifies himself in order to show us that he is LORD

Not how God glorifies Himself, but how does God need to glorify Himself? IOW, why would God need to glorify Himself? I have a hard time imagining God being insecure.

So what is the purpose of the self-glorification?

oworm · #72 10th August 2004, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by lucaspa

So what is the purpose of the self-glorification?

He glorifies himself in order to show us that he is LORD

But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.

ISA 40:5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,

and all mankind together will see it.

EZE 39:21 "I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay upon them. 22 From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God.

the purpose it would seem is to draw attention to himself as THE LORD.

Of course God doesnt need to do anything as he is totally self sufficient.
It seems that he needs to glorify himself because man is too shortsighted to see it,so it has to be revealed to man by acts of mercy and judgement

Any way apologies to the Op as this thread seems to be going OT

goodnews · #73 16th August 2004, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Serapha

Hi there!

Let me paint a picture for you...

It's after the creation and fall of man, and God is no longer walking on the earth and talking with man, but the only way to communicate is through prayer.

God sits on His magnificent throne as God the Father, with the presence of the Eternal Word and Holy Spirit there on that singular throne. And God looks at his creations on the earth, looking for upright people who will accomplish His work... and He sees Noah, but God also sees all the peole who are not upright and righteous, and God call Noah to a special work, knowing that Noah will not fail.

You know the rest.

and mankind moves on... and then God spots Abraham. He calls him out of a polytheistic home and out of a polytheistic society and calls him away from his family, and God promises Abraham a land for his obedience.

You know... we don't know if God offered this same proposal to others because there's no other record, but when God offered that plan to Abraham, Abraham listen to what God said, and in time, learned to be so close to God that he was the only person to be called "God's friend".

The reward of that walk with God was the promise of a land and a people of his generations that would serve God, just as God said in the intial proposal.

Jas 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
God chose "a people" and He tested them until they proved themselves... that took nearly 3500 years, until the time of the Babylonian captivity when "those chosen people" stopped trying to incorporate idol worship with worship to God. You see, "those chosen people" failed again and again, but Abraham's faith was the "guarantee" until the time of Christ....and God's promised Abraham a land and a people.

And they have paid a price for being the chosen of God... just as Christian pay a price in this world for being the chosen of God.

God not only is big enough to chose all people, but God did predestine all people to salvation. People either chose God or reject God, that is where free will fits in with predestination.

~serapha~

allow me to paint a second picture for you if I may.

Before God said 'LET THERE BE LIGHT!" before the earth was hung in space, the Son of the living God was slain. Before man had sinned, before the Serpent crawled on his belly Jesus was already sacrificed!

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is because God had a PLAN from the beginning. God planted BOTH trees in the garden. God made the fruit beautiful, God made the serpent subtle and wise, God made Eve foolish and weak, God made Adam out of the DUST to show the FLESH can not resist sin. What has happened COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED ANY OTHER WAY! God created man with a carnal nature so that he would fall and NEED a savior! That is how and why Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, so that he could be MERCIFUL to ALL. The whole world is BORN blind and lies in wickedness, there are none that do good, ALL have turned aside, none know God, none have understanding! And we should all ask WHY would God do such a thing? To destroy the vast majority of his weak, pathetic creation? GOD FORBID! Every man woman and child who has ever lived HAS A PURPOSE. It man who makes mistakes and errors in Judgement, not God! God uses every single person, and God LOVES EVERY SINGLE PERSON. We can not forget this EVER.

Why was Isreal a chosen nation? Because they were Examples, Types and Shadows of Believers in the NT

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

God completely controled the history of Israel to give us examples, types and shadows of the world and our walk with God. They lived under the law, a temporary SHADDOW of the REALITY, which is Christ. The reality is always Christ.

What was the PROMISE to Abraham?

That in his SEED ALL THE NATIONS SHALL BE BLESSED! Now that doesn't sound very exclusive to me, does it to you? The PROMISE IS JESUS! Now in the NT we inherit this promise by faith! The coolest thing is that this promise is NOT JUST FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, but for ALL MANKIND. That is why:

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Modern Christiandom seems to want the same exclusivity that Israel had, but the reality is Jesus died for the sin of the whole world.

Brother Owl · #74 16th August 2004, 11:11 PM

Hello goodnews

The Jewish people were and still are special to God. They had and still have a special place in history and in our future. That is not to exclude the rest of the world. For all who believe become partakers also with Israel and heirs of the promises. There is no jew or greek no male nor female in Christ. However Israel is still an ensign to the Nations and the Jews were called to a very specific calling which is distinct in all the earth.

We are all equal in that we are all now able to become sons and daughters, but the distinction of our various places and callings still remain. A prophet is a child of God even as an Evangelist is but their callings and purposes are distinct. A man and woman are equal yet the man is still the "head" in the marriage relationship. In such a manner also Jews are distinct and have a different calling then do gentiles as it relates to God's purposes in this earth.

Regarding "everyone will be saved" as you seem to be saying in your post. I hope I'm wrong here and you are right but there seems to be more than enough evidence to the contrary. Who is being cast into the lake of fire? Who is suffering the second death? Why are we told those who practice, adultery, fornication, lying, etc., etc. will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

I agree Jesus died for all men but not all men will be saved. We must trust in Jesus and continue in that trust in order to be saved. At least that is what I believe. Once I had a conversation with someone who believes there is no hell. I was hopeful they could convince me of this, however, they could not to my great disappointment.

Blessings!
Brother Owl

Zug-Zwang · #75 21st August 2004, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by ischus

Your perception of the Israelites is shaped by our modern interpretations. God always had a heart and a ministry to the Gentiles. They were called to be His people just as the "Jews" were. In fact, the "Jews" were never a pure blooded race- the patriarchs, those who came out of Egyptain bondage, etc, all show the universality of the Jewish nation, how Gentiles lived side by side with "Jews." God has always been working with Gentiles as well as Jews. He is not biased. The only reason that he chose a specific people was first of all to have a tangible line for the Messiah to come from, and also because the Jews were one of the few groups of people who ever allowed God to use them to reveal more of His word, his Will, his character, etc.

I agree with Ichus and also G-d never chose a people or a nation,he chose 1 person,1 family.He chose Abraham and brought him out and made him his own.He brought Moses out also and when Israel became a nation upon walking out with the stranger,they came to the mountain and sinned.G-d told Moses to stand aside and he would kill the multitude and make a nation out of Moses.Moses pleaded with G-d and Moses had 2 sons.Gershom{stranger} and Eliezer{son of my house}.

Rich48 · #76 24th August 2004, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by kau2u

God chose the jewish people to work out his salvation through them. Why would God need to chose "A" people. Isn't our God big enough to chose all people? And wouldnt' that make more sense

Sure He is! However, because man sinned, God had to (perhaps "had to" is not the best choice of words-maybe "wanted to" might be better) provide a means that man might be reconciled to Him. The Messiah had to come from somewhere, and God chose the Jewish race from which He was to come in order to provide our redemption. The Jewish race was "chosen" to become the race from which the Saviour of the world was to come.

Rich

jewishprincess613 · #77 25th August 2004, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by kau2u

God chose the jewish people to work out his salvation through them. Why would God need to chose "A" people. Isn't our God big enough to chose all people? And wouldnt' that make more sense

Since the vast majority of Christians do not know the Jewish view of the "chosen people", I am going to explain it in an unbiased way, and hopefully I will be permitted to post this.

First of all, the "chosen people" does not mean that G~d favoured the Jews over all people and therefore chose only them to take His wonderful Torah. In fact, it is said in the Talmud that G~d had offered it to ALL other nations BEFORE the Jews, and all rejected it. The Jews were the ones who accepted it and so they received the yoke of the mitzvos. This does not mean that G~d hates others and that all are doomed. It means that the Jews are required to fulfill THEIR mitzvos (commandments) and the Gentiles are required to fulfill THEIR'S. Yes, even Gentiles were given commandments and are expected to live a righteous life. After the flood, G~d made a covenant with Noach and this applies to all. The Jews received more mitzvos when they accepted the Torah, but the 7 Laws of Noach still and always will apply to the Gentiles. It is not a matter of favoritism at all, and that is a huge misconception by most people. G~d has a covenant with all--it is just not the same one, and a matter of understanding that G~d loves all of His children, Jewish or not.....

Rev. Smith · #78 26th August 2004, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by jewishprincess613

Since the vast majority of Christians do not know the Jewish view of the "chosen people", I am going to explain it in an unbiased way, and hopefully I will be permitted to post this.

First of all, the "chosen people" does not mean that G~d favoured the Jews over all people and therefore chose only them to take His wonderful Torah. In fact, it is said in the Talmud that G~d had offered it to ALL other nations BEFORE the Jews, and all rejected it. The Jews were the ones who accepted it and so they received the yoke of the mitzvos. This does not mean that G~d hates others and that all are doomed. It means that the Jews are required to fulfill THEIR mitzvos (commandments) and the Gentiles are required to fulfill THEIR'S. Yes, even Gentiles were given commandments and are expected to live a righteous life. After the flood, G~d made a covenant with Noach and this applies to all. The Jews received more mitzvos when they accepted the Torah, but the 7 Laws of Noach still and always will apply to the Gentiles. It is not a matter of favoritism at all, and that is a huge misconception by most people. G~d has a covenant with all--it is just not the same one, and a matter of understanding that G~d loves all of His children, Jewish or not.....

It's good to hear the foundation from an adhearant, that is the Old Catholic understanding as well of the meaning of Choice, that the Lord choose the Jews to receive his revelation, but that it is through them that He revealed himself to all his people.

Conor · #79 27th August 2004, 07:51 PM

There is in fact almost a whole chapter in the bible dedicated to addressing the topic of God's soveirgn choice

In this chapter God basicaly says that he does not have to explain himself and we should not drag the creator of the universe to account for himself before the court of human reason .
Why did God choose Israel or the jews ? the honest answer is we dont know . We do however know that the reason God chooses individuals or nations is not based on the fact that he foresees something special or good about them .
I am going to quote romans chapter 9 from verse 9 to verse 24 " in other words , it is not the natural children who are Gods children , but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as abrahams offspring .
For this was how the promise was stated
At the appointed time i will return and sarah will have a son Not only that nut rebekaha children had one and the same father , our father Isaac.
Yet , before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that Gods purpose in election might stand ;
Not by works but by him who calls - she was told
the older will serve the younger Just as it is written Jacob i loved but essau i hated .
What then shall we say ? Is God unjust ? Not at all !
For he says to moses
I will have mercy on whom i have mercy
and i will have compassion on whom i have compassion .
It does not therefore depend on mans desire or effort but on Gods mercy . For the scripture says to pharaoh
i raised you up for this very purpose , that i might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth .
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden .
One of you will say to me then why does God still blame us ? For who resists his will ?
But who are you oh man to talk back to God?
Shall what is formed say him who formed it why did you make me like this ?
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use ?
What if God choosing to show his wrath bore with great patience the objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction what if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy , whom he prepared in advance for glory - even us , whom he also called , not only from the jews but also from the gentiles " END QUOTE

The idea that God chooses us not depending on our will desire or effort goes against the grain with us and we tend to say "thats not fair "
Paul in romans 9 anticipates that but does not give an eplaination but rather asserts that we dont have the right to tell God on what basis he should make choices .

genez · #80 28th August 2004, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by jewishprincess613

Shema Yisroel: Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai Echad

Translated (I used to sing this with the congregation every Saturday morning in Shuel...)

Hear O Israel! The Lord1 our God2, the Lord3 is One!

Three mentions of the Godhead...

And........

"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Genesis 1:26

Yidel Ben Meyer..... AKA GeneZ