| Wesley's Parish - Methodist/ Nazarene The forum for Methodist, Nazarene and similar denominations. |
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3rd June 2004, 04:08 AM
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Why are our 2 denominations combined in this forum? I'm all for uniting the Christian body, but my understanding, and forgive my ignornace, I don't see much docternal similarities between our 2 denominations. Or do we have a similar follwoing I'm not familiar with?
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3rd June 2004, 05:29 AM
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Reps: 41,540 (power: 61) | | | It may depend on which Methodists you're speaking of. I'm United Methodist, and you may already be aware that we run a certain doctrinal gamut these days, but I think you might find that you have a lot in common with nearly all Free Methodists, as opposed to some of us. There are also the African Methodists and the Christian Methodists.
Personally, I belong to a conservative church here which has about an eighty percent black membership, is historically important to our area, and can't convey to you how I much miss attending my church.
I would say it has a great deal to do with our common historical and theological heritage, and that we have a single founder in human terms. However, there are members here, like Wesley John, who know a great deal more about this than I do.
I would like to say that I've admired the Nazarenes for a long time, and I'm looking forward to learning more from you than I've had the opportunity to do up till now.
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3rd June 2004, 08:09 AM
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Reps: 10,855 (power: 25) | | | If there wasn't a Methodist church, there never would have been the Nazarene denomination. Both come from the teachings of John Wesley on Holiness, Christian Perfection, and Entire Sanctification. This theological linage is not the same as that which came down through Luther and Calvin and hasn't traditionally believed in OSAS.
This diagram isn't exact. It's just showing the history of the doctrinal linage as opposed to a timeline of denominational origin. Not all Baptist fall under the Calvinist teaching, but do for the most part, so I put it on that side. Also, AoG, Free Methodist, and Nazarene didn't all happen at the same time.
__________________ The greatest gift you can give to the Church and the world is Holiness. Loreto Italy - Sept 5, 2004 Pope John Paul II |
3rd June 2004, 08:54 AM
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3rd June 2004, 04:35 PM
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Reps: 327,597 (power: 337) | | | Big Sierra,
Thanks for the diagram. It makes sense to me now. I look forward to continued discussion. Thanks also to the rest of you who responded.
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"Don't change for the world but let worlds be changed by YOU!!"
"I mean what I say, I said what I meant, an elephant's faithful 100%" Dr. Suess
From dust you came, to dust you shall return
Do your best, let God do the rest |
4th June 2004, 02:52 AM
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Reps: 15 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by bigsierra Both come from the teachings of John Wesley on Holiness, Christian Perfection, and Entire Sanctification.
For a brief time in the early 1760's JW believed that in this life the sanctification process can reach a point that we start living a sinless life. He never claimed to reach that point himself and held that belief for a couple years before deciding against that belief. Methodists believe that love can be made perfect through sanctification but we won't be sinless until we leave flesh at death. Nazarenes and Pentecostals generally believe a sinless life can be attained through sanctification in this life. Our understanding of Christian perfection is different but our beliefs about sanctification, salvation, rejection of OSAS, social holiness and many other things are the same. |
4th June 2004, 08:52 AM
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4th June 2004, 12:57 PM
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Reps: 41,540 (power: 61) | | Originally Posted by WesleyJohn I would like to see documentation of Wesley's "deciding against that belief."
Wesley wrote volumes on Entire Sanctification and Christian Perfection, and while he adjusted his language and understanding slightly, his Plain Account of Christian Perfection stands as a testimony to his commitment to the doctrine of Entire Sanctification. Keep in mind that he revised PACP as his understanding of this Biblical teaching changed throughout his lifetime, so that the version of PACP that is printed today shows his final thoughts on the matter.
A UMC minister friend did her best to explain a lot of this to me, and she's way smarter than I am, so I may not have gotten this all as it should be in my mind, so I'm hoping you'll correct me, WJ, if I make a mistake.
The doctrine of entire sactification really comes home to roost for every UMC ministerial candidate when they're being ordained, because one of the questions which they must answer "yes" is, "Do you believe you can be made sinless in this life?" (if that's not the exact quote, it's very close), and it can be a hard question to answer in the affirmative when one is acutely aware of his or her sinfulness.
One of the things she explained which really caught my attention is that Wesley believed if we were entirely sanctified, we would still sin by ommission, because possessing the mind of Christ (one of the scriptures he which led him to believe this state was possible) would not result in our possessing the attributes of God. We would not be ominiscient, ominpotent, or omnipresent, so it wouldn't be possible for us to do all the things right acts we should.
How'm I doin'? 
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5th June 2004, 08:06 AM
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5th June 2004, 11:02 AM
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Reps: 41,540 (power: 61) | | Originally Posted by WesleyJohn You are doing well Planny... Wesley did not suggest that Entire Sanctification removed or changed our human shortcomings or failings. Christian Perfection does not mean that I will never make a mistake...but that The HS will fill us and continue to grow us in grace so that we are restored to the Image of God. As such, the desire for sin is gone, and intentional sins of comission would cease. This is not to be confused with Final Sanctification or Glorification, at which point we would no longer have human imperfections. I'm pretty sure what I have just stated is consistent with Wesley's teaching, although I'm certainly willing to be corrected if support to the contrary can be found.
Grace and Peace,
WJ
Thank you for the reassurance, WJ. I've only recently had the freedom to study the Perfectionists, and I'm sorry to say I'm still at the overview stage, but Wesley's ideas seem quite different in many respects, and far more practical to me.
I'll be very suprised if anyone can marshal significant support to the contrary, in regards to your post. My friend was fascinated with all things Wesley, she was both a genius and well-educated, and what you have to say matches up with beautifully with what she told me.
She told me some fascinating things about his life, too, and I'm hoping to start a thread or two asking about some of those when I'm feeling just a little better.
You're sig quote is marvelous, btw. Thank you. 
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