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27th February 2008, 03:50 PM
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Reps: 9,610,112 (power: 9,627) | | Originally Posted by Trish1947  My point being made here, is what ever Catholics believe, seem to happen to them as being Catholic. They believe in the visions of Mary, so when one happens it's always Mary they see. If they believe in stigmata, then when it happens it's because they first believed in it from their history that is taught. Because a person believes in it, doesn't make it from God or according to scripture. Can a person believe in something that is not the truth, and still have it happen? I believe they can.
You seem to be started off with some strong assumptions here, that are nought but assumptions.
First, not all visions seen by Catholics are of Mary... not even close.
Second, of those who do have visions of Mary (which is not even what this thread is about) not all are Catholic.
The same is true with stigmata. Not all stigmatics have been Catholic.
Additionally, you seem to be starting with an assumption that such are not from God... although you have provided no evidence one way or the other-- just an apparent implication that because something seems "Catholic" then it's not from God.
As WoF... is there anything in scripture that either confirms or refutes such as being from God? If scripture doesn't actually address it... then the next question must be, "what is being communicated here?" Is it something that is drawing people to God-- healings, salvations, etc. or causing people to turn from God? This would be the same test applied to all the other "manifestations" or "signs and wonders" I've mentioned-- from gold dust with Benny Hinn to Kenneth Hagin floating in the air...
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The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them. Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him. Psalm 34:7-8 |
27th February 2008, 03:55 PM
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Reps: 76,591,206,876,701 (power: 76,591,206,893) | | Originally Posted by Father Rick You seem to be started off with some strong assumptions here, that are nought but assumptions.
First, not all visions seen by Catholics are of Mary... not even close.
Second, of those who do have visions of Mary (which is not even what this thread is about) not all are Catholic.
The same is true with stigmata. Not all stigmatics have been Catholic.
Additionally, you seem to be starting with an assumption that such are not from God... although you have provided no evidence one way or the other-- just an apparent implication that because something seems "Catholic" then it's not from God.
As WoF... is there anything in scripture that either confirms or refutes such as being from God? If scripture doesn't actually address it... then the next question must be, "what is being communicated here?" Is it something that is drawing people to God-- healings, salvations, etc. or causing people to turn from God? This would be the same test applied to all the other "manifestations" or "signs and wonders" I've mentioned-- from gold dust with Benny Hinn to Kenneth Hagin floating in the air...
I would be interested in other visions of Mary by non-Catholics. Or stigmata happening by non-Catholics, or these things happening in area's where the majority of the population isn't already accepted as Catholic and their beliefs are already well known. The reason I say this is, I live in a majority Catholic town. I'd say about 80% is Catholic..We have more visions being seen here than Carters got pills, some visable is, Mary seen on a slice of bread, mirrored on a office window, appearing on a lamp shade, to a farmer losing his crop because one Catholic employee was driving through his field, and spotted a tree trunk all twisted, that looked like Mary with child. It was no time until a shrine was set up. The farmer finally had to tear out the tree, to keep the crowds out of his fields, at the risk of being attacked, the police had to standby while the man took out the tree.. These things happen all the time here. To say it happens to boost someones faith, it looks to me they don't need anymore faith to see Mary..they already see her everywhere and in everything because they believe in it..
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Last edited by Trish1947; 28th February 2008 at 08:29 AM.
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27th February 2008, 03:58 PM
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Reps: 9,610,112 (power: 9,627) | | Originally Posted by lyonguard Are these the verses you are talking about?
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Here's the rest of the passage you quoted: 2 thess 2 - Study This Chapter 1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
That passage is speaking specifically of non-Christians who reject the gospel in favor of the anti-Christ (the man of lawlessness) during the time of the anti-Christ being revealed on earth.
So... it has nothing to do with the discussion here, unless you are saying that a) the anti-Christ is here now doing these things and b) those who accept such are not Christians...
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27th February 2008, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lyonguard Good point. And speaking of lying signs and wonders, check out this video. It is supposedly a communion wafer that beats like a heart. Yipes! That is not of God. No one refers to Jesus' Sacred Heart except Catholics. This is a religious stunt, either of man (unspeakably evil) or of Satan, who we all know to be a magician extraordinaire!
Last edited by Floatingaxe; 27th February 2008 at 04:59 PM.
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27th February 2008, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Father Rick Actually, the existence of stigmata, in which there is no medical explanation or underlying sickness/disease, has been proven. Numerous stigmatics have been observed/scientifically studied by both skeptics and by those who believe such to be from God... so such do exist.
The question then becomes is God glorified by such? No He isn't. It is the stigmata itself that is revered. The person who has fallen under the spell is revered also. It is a Satanic device to cause people to not seek the living Christ, and to fixate on His wounds, and His morbid death...not His resurrection, and not His life-giving salvation. It brings people to view the spectacle for the spectacle's sake, and to feed the need for a "religious" experience, but it is a counterfeit to truly experiencing the living Jesus. That revelation comes by the Holy Spirit. Morbid=Satanic |
27th February 2008, 04:58 PM
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Reps: 9,610,112 (power: 9,627) | | Originally Posted by Floatingaxe No He isn't.
It is the stigmata itself that is revered. The person who has fallen under the spell is revered also. It is a Satanic device to cause people to not seek the living Christ, and to fixate on His wounds, and His morbid death...not His resurrection, and not His life-giving salvation. It brings people to view the spectacle for the spectacle's sake, and to feed the need for a "religious" experience, but it is a counterfeit to truly experiencing the living Jesus. That revelation comes by the Holy Spirit.
Morbid=Satanic
Ok... do you realize that you just stated that Jesus' death for our sins was satanic?
It is Jesus' death that brings forgiveness of sins... not His resurrection. It is true that by His resurrection He defeated death, but it is His sacrificial death that provides forgiveness for sin and reconciliation with God.
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27th February 2008, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Father Rick Ok... do you realize that you just stated that Jesus' death for our sins was satanic?
It is Jesus' death that brings forgiveness of sins... not His resurrection. It is true that by His resurrection He defeated death, but it is His sacrificial death that provides forgiveness for sin and reconciliation with God. I see what you are seeing, but that is not what I said. Jesus' execution was morbid, gruesome. People's fixation on it by these signs and wonders is morbid and satan, the goblin of grisly, has engineered it all.
Last edited by Floatingaxe; 27th February 2008 at 05:15 PM.
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27th February 2008, 05:22 PM
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Reps: 60,439 (power: 69) | | Originally Posted by Father Rick Ok... do you realize that you just stated that Jesus' death for our sins was satanic?
I don't believe you were reading her intent there. Of course she doesn't believe His death was satanic - and it doesn't actually say that. Be careful or she'll get her axe out!  |
27th February 2008, 05:24 PM
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Reps: 60,439 (power: 69) | | Originally Posted by Father Rick Here's the rest of the passage you quoted:That passage is speaking specifically of non-Christians who reject the gospel in favor of the anti-Christ (the man of lawlessness) during the time of the anti-Christ being revealed on earth.
So... it has nothing to do with the discussion here, unless you are saying that a) the anti-Christ is here now doing these things and b) those who accept such are not Christians...
Hey! All I was asking is if that was the verses she was talking about. Don't make me come over there! |
27th February 2008, 05:54 PM
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Reps: 9,610,112 (power: 9,627) | | Originally Posted by lyonguard Hey! All I was asking is if that was the verses she was talking about. Don't make me come over there!
Come on over...
I've got a wet noodle and I'm not afraid to use it!!
Lashes for everyone!!!
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