Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
Creationists with utterly confused theology: is this any surprise?
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And who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? - Origen, 215AD [De Principiis 4.1.16]
And he has numbered the hairs of my head. A sparrow does not fall without His considered will over the matter.
Why is your end of the telescope better than mine? I am measuring pain and the compassion of God over such matters. What are you measuring?
I do think you missed the point.
Earlier, ClearSky felt that it was too much to believe that God needed billions of years in which to produce life's diversity.
In reply, theFijian made the point that billions of years is nothing to an eternal God who is outside of time.
You then replied that "one second matters to God when his creatures are in the agony of death... A few billion years is lots of seconds"
In return, I pointed out that if God were in such a rush to banish "agony", He would have sent a saviour immediately after the Fall instead of waiting a few thousand years.
Copiche?
If everything happens "in His time", who are we to say that a few billion years is too long for God to wait? Or a few thousand, for that matter?
Creationists with utterly confused theology: is this any surprise?
"Here's a witty rejoinder for ya'"*
*The Simpsons,, The Front, 1992
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Last edited by busterdog; 7th March 2008 at 08:29 AM.
Originally Posted by busterdog You don't understand what either I am saying or ClearSky. We agree with you.
Did you ever pray for something? Why did you bother? Would that require God to "change his mind" about what he intends for you? Or does it just seem that way? So, you are going to kill someone over semantics on such a matter?
I know this is a rhetorical question but I have no idea no which side you're expecting me to fall. You know me, I'm a calvinist, I believe in God's eternal decree, Arminians tend not to. Semantics can make a big difference when contending for the sovereignty of God.
Calvinists seem to take the view that the result is already in view for God whether before, after or during the prayer. To us the appearance of delay makes the world look Arminian. The Calvinist formulation is intractible and Paul has stated as much.
As for which side to take, yes this is a problem with reform theology. It doesn't make that theology wrong, its just that there are certain problems it can't address very well. There is plenty of scripture for the proposition that God "appears" to change (to us). And we are at times to act (pray) as if he does. But, we know he changes not. There is no simple choice of sides in the matter.
What is the opportune time for God to show mercy? You go to Church and pray. "Lord, show mercy today on something where I didn't see the outworking of your mercy yesterday." I haven't missed the point at all. The lapse of time is not an index of compassion in this fallen world.
Umm...wasn't that the point I was making.....?
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No. You were making a point about the lapse of time before the regime of man has anything to do with this planet. You were saying, all other things being equal (ie, no inhumane human authorities in fallen world), God's paradise has lots of suffering and death. Since I was talking about us, I was referring to the post fall world.
This all seems completely irrelevant to the original point I was answering. are you been getting enough sleep? Suffice to say that lines of authority were ordained at the time of Creation, submission to authority does not make one a slave.
Paul is talking of bond servants and slaves. Paul has a lot to say about respect for government and human authority. Paul does not say to figure out first whether these authorities are butchers and tyrants. Again my question. In your prefall world, are there human masters to which other men are bound in servitude? Does God allow slavery in his paradise? It is perfectly on point. There is a type of authority before the fall and a different type after. Man's authority after the fall explains the "delay" in the demonstration of God's mercy, which would otherwise be unimpeded in paradise.
Hint: The "sovereignty" of man is the main area where Reform theology limitations appear. Double hint: Sovereignty assumes a certain dominion, or the right to rule within a certain dominion. This means there are degrees of sovereignty, some degrees being subject to others. God's dominion subsumes all the others and include the right to delegate a defined dominion.
You see, this is why you all need lawyers (again, a decidedly post-fall enterprise). Get Vance in here to straighten you out on this.
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Last edited by busterdog; 7th March 2008 at 08:43 AM.
But if you were talking about my agreement with you on 'human reason', and that if I would change my mind if presented with absolute proof of evolution, then go ahead and bring it on... but in another thread. The evolution versus creationism thread is much more suitable. However, I will forwarn you that I have read enough trash and speculation from all sorts over the years and have not been impressed.
I posted a new thread with a one example of this: http://christianforums.com/t6986207. I can provide some further examples if you want them, but I’ll want to see what you have to say about that challenge first.
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Calvinists seem to take the view that the result is already in view for God whether before, after or during the prayer.
Yes I believe God is sovereign. Don't you?
To us the appearance of delay makes the world look Arminian.
Well that's human pride for you, we always have to think we're the ones in control
The Calvinist formulation is intractible(sic) and Paul has stated as much.
Hmm, you never were very good at reformed theology....
As for which side to take, yes this is a problem with reform theology. It doesn't make that theology wrong, its just that there are certain problems it can't address very well. There is plenty of scripture for the proposition that God "appears" to change (to us). And we are at times to act (pray) as if he does. But, we know he changes not. There is no simple choice of sides in the matter.
...but then this! What's funny is you are more reformed than you'd like to think. This is where careful bible study will lead you eventually.
No. You were making a point about the lapse of time before the regime of man has anything to do with this planet. You were saying, all other things being equal (ie, no inhumane human authorities in fallen world), God's paradise has lots of suffering and death. Since I was talking about us, I was referring to the post fall world.
Oh you were talking about the post-fallen world? You did miss the point then.
There is a type of authority before the fall and a different type after. Man's authority after the fall explains the "delay" in the demonstration of God's mercy, which would otherwise be unimpeded in paradise.
I didnt realise you were arminian and dispensationalist as well! A noisome combination if ever there was one! Sorry, but man has no more authority/sovereignty/dominion on earth post-fall than was given him by God at Creation. And what need was there of mercy in paradise? (I'm sure Vance could straighten you out on this!)
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A mathematician confided
That a Möbius band is one-sided,
And you'll get quite a laugh,
If you cut one in half,
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Well that's human pride for you, we always have to think we're the ones in control
Hmm, you never were very good at reformed theology....
...but then this! What's funny is you are more reformed than you'd like to think. This is where careful bible study will lead you eventually.
Oh you were talking about the post-fallen world? You did miss the point then.
I didnt realise you were arminian and dispensationalist as well! A noisome combination if ever there was one! Sorry, but man has no more authority/sovereignty/dominion on earth post-fall than was given him by God at Creation. And what need was there of mercy in paradise? (I'm sure Vance could straighten you out on this!)
No one questions sovereignty, so I don't presume to question others the way you have.
Yes, I am quite familiar with reform theology and why it fits my beliefs. I also realize the limits beyond which it doesn't work.
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Last edited by busterdog; 10th March 2008 at 05:06 PM.
You can see the impressive change of God's character in scripture.
Directly after creation he reacted in massive, extreme ways on human acts. He cursed the whole creation because of one man's disobedience. Then he wiped out almost all life in the flood. Afterwards the first change occurred. He wiped out two cities, but wouldn't have done that if he had found 5 good people in them. He killed the firstborn children of the Egypts, but was forced to for demonstrating his superiority over the Egyptian gods. He grow impatient with Israel and intended to kill all of them, but could be dissuaded from that by Moses. Then His change continued. He interfered less and less in human affairs, and became more and more merciful and forgiving. In the end He was so forgiving that he did not even fulfill the expectation of a physical liberation of the suppressed Jewish people from the Assyrians, the Greeks, and the Romans. In the mindset He had during the exodus, 1500 years before, He would have just wiped out Israel's enemies in an instant.
So I see a definite change of His character, from a very aggressive and fierce warrior God 1500 BC, to a withdrawn, peaceful, and forgiving God, culminating in the sacrifice of His son.
This is not necessarily a change in God's character. It can also be a change in how people of that time understood God's character.
Nomadic tribes, such as the Israelites (= probably the Hyksos tribe) during the exodus needed the fierce warrior God. They had to fight their way and their God had to compete with all the other Gods of the other tribes around.
However the Jews at the time of Roman suppression needed a peaceful God who turned the other cheek. War was no good option for them because then they would be wiped out by the Romans. What indeed happened in the Bar Kokhba rebellion 130 AC.
So God can be both, aggressive and peaceful, but the people describing him probably saw only one side of his character.
If you think Chuck Missler is Arminian, then I will no for sure than you don't understand.
No one advocates arminiaism. It is just that mainline exceptions forumulated by reform theologians themselves start to swallow the rule at some point.
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