Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
Why does this same answer not satisfy your concerns about billions of years of pre-Fall "agony"? Why would a thousand years of agony not matter to God, but a billion years would?
I am not sure which thousand years you refer to. Do you mean all of post-fall time as YECs reckon it? (6,000 or so).
Seems to me that God gave people to the tools to find Him and his protection (relatively speaking at the very least). They do not avail themselves of it.
Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.
Is the question whether he should have provided his grace by means more obvious or acceptable to us?
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
especially since to God a day is a thousand years and a thousand years a day...
And he has numbered the hairs of my head. A sparrow does not fall without His considered will over the matter.
Why is your end of the telescope better than mine? I am measuring pain and the compassion of God over such matters. What are you measuring?
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
So God stands accused of indifference towards human suffering for YECs too.
I mean that is sort of flip, but are we really going to reason this one out definitively?
So why bother responding to the original point save to bump your gums and waste bandwidth?
You tell me what the most opportune time should be. I think it is a bit above my head.
Way to completely miss the point.
__________________
Give me Scotland or I die - John Knox
A mathematician confided
That a Möbius band is one-sided,
And you'll get quite a laugh,
If you cut one in half,
For it stays in one piece when divided!
I am not completely happy with your language, but that would be quibbling. I think we probably mostly agree on what you are saying. This is not an easy area in which to choose words that work for all considerations. Quibblers take note.
No we don't, God's character does not change! Here's me thinking I was supposed to be the bible-hating liberal! Just goes to show what happens when people make anti-evolutionism their raison d'etre that the rest of their theology goes to pot.
__________________
Give me Scotland or I die - John Knox
A mathematician confided
That a Möbius band is one-sided,
And you'll get quite a laugh,
If you cut one in half,
For it stays in one piece when divided!
I am not sure which thousand years you refer to. Do you mean all of post-fall time as YECs reckon it? (6,000 or so)...
Is the question whether he should have provided his grace by means more obvious or acceptable to us?
I do think you missed the point.
Earlier, ClearSky felt that it was too much to believe that God needed billions of years in which to produce life's diversity.
In reply, theFijian made the point that billions of years is nothing to an eternal God who is outside of time.
You then replied that "one second matters to God when his creatures are in the agony of death... A few billion years is lots of seconds"
In return, I pointed out that if God were in such a rush to banish "agony", He would have sent a saviour immediately after the Fall instead of waiting a few thousand years.
Copiche?
If everything happens "in His time", who are we to say that a few billion years is too long for God to wait? Or a few thousand, for that matter?
__________________ We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.
No we don't, God's character does not change! Here's me thinking I was supposed to be the bible-hating liberal! Just goes to show what happens when people make anti-evolutionism their raison d'etre that the rest of their theology goes to pot.
You don't understand what either I am saying or ClearSky. We agree with you.
Did you ever pray for something? Why did you bother? Would that require God to "change his mind" about what he intends for you? Or does it just seem that way? So, you are going to kill someone over semantics on such a matter?
[quote=theFijian;44347936]
So God stands accused of indifference towards human suffering for YECs too.
Your words and yours only. I politely ask that you take them back.
So why bother responding to the original point save to bump your gums and waste bandwidth?
Way to completely miss the point.
"Q: Not a bit of it, Bond."
What is the opportune time for God to show mercy? You go to Church and pray. "Lord, show mercy today on something where I didn't see the outworking of your mercy yesterday." I haven't missed the point at all. The lapse of time is not an index of compassion in this fallen world.
You all want to assume ambient, uniformitarian conditions. This time it concerns God's delegation of authority on earth. You say that pre-fall the laws of creation, government, etc, were exactly the same as they are now. Well, God did not have human obstruction in paradise. Agree?
Tts 2:9
[Exhort] servants to be obedient unto their own masters, [and] to please [them] well in all [things]; not answering again;
Do you think there were slaves in Eden? Or were the lines of authority completely different?
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
Last edited by busterdog; 6th March 2008 at 06:38 PM.
I do think you missed the point.
Earlier, ClearSky felt that it was too much to believe that God needed billions of years in which to produce life's diversity.
In reply, theFijian made the point that billions of years is nothing to an eternal God who is outside of time.
You then replied that "one second matters to God when his creatures are in the agony of death... A few billion years is lots of seconds"
In return, I pointed out that if God were in such a rush to banish "agony", He would have sent a saviour immediately after the Fall instead of waiting a few thousand years.
Copiche?
If everything happens "in His time", who are we to say that a few billion years is too long for God to wait? Or a few thousand, for that matter?
Billions of years is never "nothing". In the evolutionary cycle, it is lots and lots of suffering and death.
If God establishes human authorities on the earth, that is His law. These authorities establish their agendas. They decide who lives and who dies. God exploits loopholes quite often, but clearly He establishes authorities and must not break His word on such matters. God is not "free" to remove all suffering immediately, since His Word already ordains authorities that create suffering.
In Eden, it was completely different. That is why the idea of billions of years of fallen-world-style suffering is unimaginable to me in the providence of God's love unimpeded by human sin and authority.
Not everything happens "in God's time." Otherwise we would never pray. We say, God make it happen in my time. God says, "Oh, so, you are going to submit to me this time? I was waiting for you to make your time my time, with much patience, since I knew when you would come before you submitted." Better to say that everything happens in a way that is very difficult to understand.
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
I am not completely happy with your language, but that would be quibbling. I think we probably mostly agree on what you are saying. This is not an easy area in which to choose words that work for all considerations. Quibblers take note.
Glad to see that as long as anyone agrees with you about the recently coined, contentious doctrine of neo-creationism, they can take potshots at the doctrine of the impassability of God that predates even Christianity and deserve nothing more than "quibbling". Good doctrinal prioritization here.
Sorry can't say much else right now, have to conserve laptop battery.
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And who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? - Origen, 215AD [De Principiis 4.1.16]
In Eden, it was completely different. That is why the idea of billions of years of fallen-world-style suffering is unimaginable to me in the providence of God's love unimpeded by human sin and authority...
...Better to say that everything happens in a way that is very difficult to understand.
__________________ We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.
You don't understand what either I am saying or ClearSky. We agree with you.
Did you ever pray for something? Why did you bother? Would that require God to "change his mind" about what he intends for you? Or does it just seem that way? So, you are going to kill someone over semantics on such a matter?
I know this is a rhetorical question but I have no idea no which side you're expecting me to fall. You know me, I'm a calvinist, I believe in God's eternal decree, Arminians tend not to. Semantics can make a big difference when contending for the sovereignty of God.
Your words and yours only. I politely ask that you take them back.
Just as soon as you take back yours.
"Q: Not a bit of it, Bond."
What is the opportune time for God to show mercy? You go to Church and pray. "Lord, show mercy today on something where I didn't see the outworking of your mercy yesterday." I haven't missed the point at all. The lapse of time is not an index of compassion in this fallen world.
Umm...wasn't that the point I was making.....?
You all want to assume ambient, uniformitarian conditions. This time it concerns God's delegation of authority on earth. You say that pre-fall the laws of creation, government, etc, were exactly the same as they are now. Well, God did not have human obstruction in paradise. Agree?
Tts 2:9
[Exhort] servants to be obedient unto their own masters, [and] to please [them] well in all [things]; not answering again;
Do you think there were slaves in Eden? Or were the lines of authority completely different?
This all seems completely irrelevant to the original point I was answering. are you been getting enough sleep? Suffice to say that lines of authority were ordained at the time of Creation, submission to authority does not make one a slave.
__________________
Give me Scotland or I die - John Knox
A mathematician confided
That a Möbius band is one-sided,
And you'll get quite a laugh,
If you cut one in half,
For it stays in one piece when divided!
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