| Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums. |
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5th March 2008, 10:26 PM
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Reps: 27,749,724,098,880,132 (power: 27,749,724,098,889) | | Originally Posted by Mallon  So is a few thousand years. Why didn't God just send a saviour immediately after the Fall?
Apparently because He didn't want to.
I mean that is sort of flip, but are we really going to reason this one out definitively?
Well, God was present as a pillar of cloud and fire. Was Israel impressed? Enough to make a golden calf and have an orgy because they couldn't wait a whole 40 days for Moses.
God can be here and raise the dead and what do people do? They freaking kill him.
You tell me what the most opportune time should be. I think it is a bit above my head.
One thing I do know. There was the dominion given to man in Gen. 3. There was a pre-fall and a post fall world. The latter was subject to the laws of men. Scripture says so explicitly. But, not the former. Even God honors the law of men, except where it violates His.
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in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; |
5th March 2008, 11:22 PM
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Reps: 12,074 (power: 17) | | Originally Posted by ClearSky You can see the impressive change of God's character in scripture.
What rubbish! God does not change. Or don't you trust the Bible and God? |
6th March 2008, 12:18 AM
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Reps: 18,889,155,825,852,136 (power: 18,889,155,825,864) | | Originally Posted by busterdog Apparently because He didn't want to.
Why does this same answer not satisfy your concerns about billions of years of pre-Fall "agony"? Why would a thousand years of agony not matter to God, but a billion years would?
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"There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well." -- creation scientist Dr. Todd Wood |
6th March 2008, 12:19 AM
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Reps: 18,604,695,596,698 (power: 18,604,695,606) | | Originally Posted by NathanCGreen What rubbish! God does not change. Or don't you trust the Bible and God?
I asked you a question on page three of this thread. When you never answered it, I figured you might’ve just abandoned the thread. But now that it’s clear you’re going to keep participating in it, are you going to answer what I asked you in response to your previous post?
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6th March 2008, 01:59 AM
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Reps: 12,074 (power: 17) | | Originally Posted by Aggie I asked you a question on page three of this thread. When you never answered it, I figured you might’ve just abandoned the thread. But now that it’s clear you’re going to keep participating in it, are you going to answer what I asked you in response to your previous post?
What question? About 9/11? If so, that won't be done here. But if you were talking about my agreement with you on 'human reason', and that if I would change my mind if presented with absolute proof of evolution, then go ahead and bring it on... but in another thread. The evolution versus creationism thread is much more suitable. However, I will forwarn you that I have read enough trash and speculation from all sorts over the years and have not been impressed.
By the way, you have given me the opportunity to announce that I have also abandoned the heliocentric view of the universe and have now set my feet upon the geocentric path. |
6th March 2008, 02:06 AM
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Reps: 5,708 (power: 10) | | Originally Posted by NathanCGreen By the way, you have given me the opportunity to announce that I have also abandoned the heliocentric view of the universe and have now set my feet upon the geocentric path. 
If you are convinced that the sun revolves around the earth, then you have absolutely no hope of understanding evolution. |
6th March 2008, 02:58 AM
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Reps: 15,461,686,232,085,960 (power: 15,461,686,232,100) | | Originally Posted by NathanCGreen What question? About 9/11? If so, that won't be done here. But if you were talking about my agreement with you on 'human reason', and that if I would change my mind if presented with absolute proof of evolution, then go ahead and bring it on... but in another thread. The evolution versus creationism thread is much more suitable. However, I will forwarn you that I have read enough trash and speculation from all sorts over the years and have not been impressed.
By the way, you have given me the opportunity to announce that I have also abandoned the heliocentric view of the universe and have now set my feet upon the geocentric path.
Well done. Pound the stuffing out of your liberal heliocentric YEC friends for us! 
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6th March 2008, 07:59 AM
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Reps: 3,418 (power: 8) | | Originally Posted by shernren Well done. You have essentially laid the logical foundation for the atheist belief that the Bible was not written as a consistent book.
If creationists can be this liberal I don't know what to call myself any more. 
Wow, I now have it officially to be more liberal than an evolutionist! However, the only thing I do is taking the Bible seriously. If course I haven't said the Bible was not written as a consistent book. On the contrary, you need to read the Bible as a consistent description of the development of God's character over time. The Bible describes Him as a complex and difficult character who is able to learn and to change. And this ability to change is most important of all we know about God.
Look at the following verses: psalm 68:21 - God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.
Thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.
God is depicted as a relentless warrior here, taking scalps and wading in the blood of His enemies. But look what He tells us 1000 years later: Lk 6,29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
This is not just a picking of quotes, you'll find it all over the Bible. In fact it's one of the Bible's main motives. God's greatness lies in his change of character. Originally Posted by busterdog Explain what you mean by mindset. I am not sure you are being understood.
One of my favorite verses: Exd 4:24¶And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
But, of course, Zipporah throws down the foreskin and God doesn't kill Moses.
Did God change his mind?
Not likely.
Apparently God sort of goes through the motions while people, who were given dominion over this world act out their laws and sometimes, as Zipporah does, get around to acting out His.
My guess is that you think it SEEMS that His mindset changes, or that we might as well speak of a changing mindset, though we know that God is not a man that he should repent.
Yes, but I did not want to point out that God changed His mind. He is able to change His mind, but that just shows that He's listening.
What I meant is a change of character that goes far beyond change of mind. This change of God's character towards the forgiving and merciful is one of the most impressive facts in the Bible, and is one major point of Christianity.
Last edited by ClearSky; 6th March 2008 at 10:29 AM.
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6th March 2008, 08:04 AM
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Reps: 10,219,569,387,278,330 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Mallon Why does this same answer not satisfy your concerns about billions of years of pre-Fall "agony"? Why would a thousand years of agony not matter to God, but a billion years would?
especially since to God a day is a thousand years and a thousand years a day... |
6th March 2008, 08:27 AM
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Reps: 27,749,724,098,880,132 (power: 27,749,724,098,889) | | Originally Posted by ClearSky
Yes, but I did not want to point out that God changed His mind. He is able to change His mind, but that just shows that He's listening.
What I meant is a change of character that goes far beyond change of mind. This change of God's character towards the forgiving and merciful is one of the most impressive facts in the Bible, and is one major point of Christianity.
I am not completely happy with your language, but that would be quibbling. I think we probably mostly agree on what you are saying. This is not an easy area in which to choose words that work for all considerations. Quibblers take note.
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