Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
The apparent errors and contradictions of Scripture are just as they appear - simple errors. It is understandable that a book by hundreds of authors of different knowledge and education has lots of errors and contradictions. Your assumption of a cruel God is just based on such errors. Look at the following example:
1 Sam 15:2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling
Ok, God commands the genocide of the Amalekites. Their crime was that they defended their territory against the Israelites 200 years earlier. With a strong Israelitic army established under King Saul in 1000 AC, God now saw his opportunity for revenge. That seems to support the idea of a cruel God. But look how the story continues:
1 Sam 15:7And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword
Saul obeys God and kills the whole tribe with one exception. To God's dismay, he spares the life of their king Agag. God is enraged and removes his grace from Saul. Agag, the last Amalekite, is eventually murdered by the prophet Samuel. Genocide successfully finished.
But suddenly, 5 years later:
1 Sam 30:1And it came to pass, when David and his men were come to Ziklag on the third day, that the Amalekites had invaded the south, and Ziklag, and smitten Ziklag, and burned it with fire
The killed Amalekites are very alive and kicking, and probably mighty pỉssed about their neighbor's God's genocide attempts! So you see that the genocide story in 1 Samuel is completely made up. God never gave that command, the Amalekites were never murdered, and the Bible itself confirms this just a few pages later.
When you look at all stories how God killed this family and extinguished that tribe, they'll turn out to be mostly made up by some Bible authors who thought that those stories would contribute to God's glory.
This is a good example how too-literal interpretation of the bible leads to the assumption of a cruel, murderous God and consequently, a God whose character needs to change in order to adapt to the improving human morale standard. But stories of made-up victories and genocides were quite normal in that time, you can also find them in Egypt, Assyrian and Babylonic history. You need to read all stories in their historic context. Wrong literal Bible interpretation can insult God by giving him a Hitler-like character, and can do great damage to Christianity.
There are two wrong assumptions here. The first one is that the genocide order means that God has a "Hitler-like character".
God ordered the slaying of the Amalekites in 1000 AC. This order fits into a pattern of similar events at that time. From the point of view of God, He had to compete with other gods of other tribes, and had to show His superiority.
God's intention was to prevent the downfall of Israelite religion. This had priority over anything else, even over human rights. According to Scripture, whenever He turned His back, Israel was immediately worshipping Baal and Ashera. He had to take extreme measures to prevent this. Do not forget that God, who never had suffered before Christ's birth, did not value human life at that time the same way we do today.
Today we think different about it, and I suspect that even God now thinks differently. He has repeatedly regretted many of His action, and since the birth of Christ He has withdrawn from any direct actions in the world.
The second wrong assumption is that the Amalekite genocide never happened. It did happen - the error in Scripture was in Samuel 30, not Samuel 15. If Samuel 15 were wrong, the whole book would not make any sense. The sparing of Agag's life caused Saul's removal from grace and his eventual death. If that had not happened, David would never have gained kingship and the whole history would have been different.
The Amalekites that attacked Israel 5 years later were probably a different tribe. Probably a copyist or translator made a mistake and used the wrong name for the tribe.
Let me address this because I've studied this stuff in astrophysics.
It is correct that our universe can be described as a space-time continuum. That however does not mean that it's possible to arbitrarily move from one time event to another. General Relativity limits the possible paths in the space-time continuum. The limitations depends on the metric of the universe. This is why we have a preferred time direction in our universe, and the future is not determined from a position in the past. Paths that allow a look in the future from the past, and would cause the collapse of the wave function of a future event, are just not possible in our universe.
Of course, there are other universes possible that allow information to travel from the future into the past, and thus the future is determined, all wave functions are collapsed and time travel is theoretically possible. Goedel has described such a universe. But in ours there's an event horizon between future and past that's impenetrable for cause->effect relations.
So, in short, it can not be deducted form General Relativity that the future is determined and free will is impossible.
The conclusion you’re drawing about this doesn’t seem to be warranted. I know that time travel isn’t possible to whatever extent it would interfere with quantum randomness, but the point I’m making doesn’t depend on that. The point is just that as is explained in my father’s letter, Relativity demands that the future already exists. It’s either one single future universe or multiple possible ones, and if it’s the latter case, then all of those separate universes exist simultaneously.
Do you disagree with this idea? And if so, why?
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Yes, for the reasons mentioned above I disagree with the idea that Relativity demands that the future already exists.
You gave the example of a reference frame in which Adam's disobedience had already happened. Such a reference frame is only possible beyond the time plane _after_ Adams decision. Or more precisely, within the light cone originating from the decision space-time location. The metric of our universe restricts the possible reference frames, you can not have any frame you want. There is no possible space-time path that would connect the moment and place of Adam's fall with a moment and place let's say in the creation week before.
This is not a theological argument in the sense that free will would contradict a determined future. It is a physical argument. Adam's decision did not exist in relation to earlier events. It only existed in relation to later events. In contrary to what your father said in his letter, space-time is not a static continuum where events just exist in an absolute way. The mistake lies in the meaning of 'existence'. The universe is a dynamic continuum where the existence of any space-time event is not absolute, but relative to another space-time event. Existence requires the possibility of a physical path connecting one event to the other.
Of course you could argue that God nevertheless knew Adams decision beforehand due to a miracle. But Relativity does not demand this.
Last edited by ClearSky; 17th March 2008 at 12:51 PM.
To summarize the article, “free will” is a perception that people have, but it only exists as a mental experience. The article describes a few experiments in which people claimed to be the ones causing their actions even when it clearly isn’t possible:
I don't know that the experiments lead to the conclusion stated. For one thing, it seems to assume that a decision made by the unconscious mind is not a free decision. I don't know that that is the case.
In that case, at least, there’s no question that “free will” was a complete illusion.
It is certainly true we have a lot to learn about brain-mind interaction. We cannot think of the mind as "inhabiting" the body or the brain as used to be the case. But I don't think it follows that free will is an illusion either.
You also don’t seem to really be addressing what I said about Relativity. The reason we can know that the future is determined isn’t because our actions are the results of purely physical processes; it’s just something about the nature of time itself. Even if our actions were somehow the results of things in the spiritual world that aren’t bound by the laws of causality, our actions themselves still exist at certain points in space and time just like any other event, which means they have all already existed from the moment the universe was created. What causes our actions doesn’t have any effect on this.
Yes, I understand this. That is why the whole "causal nexus" between spirit and matter is so thorny. However, I am not a physicist---far from it. So I have no way of evaluating your take on relativity vis-a-vis that of ClearSky.
Obviously, for theological reasons, I prefer what ClearSky is presenting. But I cannot vouch for either of you.
I will add one comment. Not actually mine, but based on something Lee Smolin says in The Life of the Cosmos.
He is commenting on the properties of elementary particles. One of the great puzzles is why the properties of an electron, a proton or any other elementary particle are what they are.
He offers three theoretical approaches. One is some form of the anthropic principle, which in theistic form would amount to saying, elementary particles have the properties they do, because these are the properties necessary to the formation of stars and to life and God so willed it that the universe be a life-bearing universe.
A second option is the multiple universe option.
The third is the one that intrigues me and bears, I believe on this question.
It may be, Smolin surmises, that there exists only one mathematically consistent theory of the universe. If this is the case, we could then derive all events in the universe from the properties of its fundamental elementary particles. (Rather like the 19th century observation that if we knew the current position and velocity of every atom, we could predict the whole future history of the universe.)
What Smolin notes is that if such is the case, "we would have little choice but to become mystics. This would be an even purer mysticism than the anthropic principle because then even God would have had no choice in the creation of the world."
Emphasis added.
Have you thought about the implications of a totally determined future on the sovereignty of God?
__________________ The high, the low, all of creation God gives to humankind to use. If this privilege is misused, God's Justice permits creation to punish humanity~~ Hildegard of Bingen cited in, Earth Prayers from around the World
Yes, for the reasons mentioned above I disagree with the idea that Relativity demands that the future already exists.
You gave the example of a reference frame in which Adam's disobedience had already happened. Such a reference frame is only possible beyond the time plane _after_ Adams decision. Or more precisely, within the light cone originating from the decision space-time location. The metric of our universe restricts the possible reference frames, you can not have any frame you want. There is no possible space-time path that would connect the moment and place of Adam's fall with a moment and place let's say in the creation week before.
This is not a theological argument in the sense that free will would contradict a determined future. It is a physical argument. Adam's decision did not exist in relation to earlier events. It only existed in relation to later events. In contrary to what your father said in his letter, space-time is not a static continuum where events just exist in an absolute way. The mistake lies in the meaning of 'existence'. The universe is a dynamic continuum where the existence of any space-time event is not absolute, but relative to another space-time event. Existence requires the possibility of a physical path connecting one event to the other.
Of course you could argue that God nevertheless knew Adams decision beforehand due to a miracle. But Relativity does not demand this.
I really think you might not be understanding how this works correctly.
Let’s suppose you’re using the reference frame of someone traveling faster than the speed of light. It’s a very common misconception that something in one of Einstein’s Relativity theories doesn’t allow anything to travel faster than light, but this actually isn’t true; this is explained in this article. For someone traveling faster than light, the direction of time is reversed, meaning that what appears to them as the future would be the past to everyone else, and vice versa.
How do you reconcile what you’re saying about these reference frames not being possible with what’s explained in that article? (That’s actually just a preview of the article, but it explains enough to make it clear that the common idea “nothing can travel faster than light” actually isn’t an accurate description of physics, and that from the reference frame of a stationary observer this would cause effects to precede their causes.)
Originally Posted by gluadys
It may be, Smolin surmises, that there exists only one mathematically consistent theory of the universe. If this is the case, we could then derive all events in the universe from the properties of its fundamental elementary particles. (Rather like the 19th century observation that if we knew the current position and velocity of every atom, we could predict the whole future history of the universe.)
What Smolin notes is that if such is the case, "we would have little choice but to become mystics. This would be an even purer mysticism than the anthropic principle because then even God would have had no choice in the creation of the world."
Emphasis added.
Have you thought about the implications of a totally determined future on the sovereignty of God?
Yes, but I don’t agree with Smolin’s idea; this isn’t what I mean when I say I think the future is determined. I think the laws of mathematics aren’t something that exist independently of the universe, so in other words God would have created them along with everything else. Since God could have made the laws of mathematics different if he’d wanted to, it isn’t significant to say that the physics of our universe are the only physics that could be consistent with our universe’s mathematical laws. I think the only reason most people are unable to imagine a universe where the laws of mathematics are different is just because they’ve never inhabited a universe other than this one. Our existence might not be possible in a universe where the laws of mathematics are different, but that doesn’t mean God would have been incapable of creating one.
When I say that the future is determined, what I mean is what my father said in his letter: that God created the entire four-dimensional structure of the universe at once. He had a choice what its structure would be when he was creating it; it’s only now that it exists that the future is set in place. I also don’t consider it a limitation of God’s sovereignty that he isn’t able to alter the future from what he determined originally, since I don’t believe someone both omnipotent and omniscient is capable of making mistakes. When he determined what would happen throughout the universe’s history, he would have made sure that everything that happens in it would be exactly what he wanted, so there’s no need for him to contradict himself by changing what he determined in his original plan.
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Do not forget that God, who never had suffered before Christ's birth, did not value human life at that time the same way we do today.
This is serious speculation. We are talking about God, here. The Alpha and Omega. God is not restricted by time, therefore He knows suffering, and He values human life the same from OT to NT. His approach given by scripture may have changed, but there are many reasons as to why. His ways are not ours, and for us to speculate on His reasoning and purpose is unfruitful. We only see but a tiny glimpse of God and existence, how can we paint a whole picture with that?
There is nothing 'new' about God.
Today we think different about it, and I suspect that even God now thinks differently. He has repeatedly regretted many of His action, and since the birth of Christ He has withdrawn from any direct actions in the world.
God could only think 'differently' if He was bound by time and limited in knowledge, and if He is bound by time, then He is no God at all.
__________________ dave says:
they are speaking for the truth instead of letting the truth speak for itself.
I really think you might not be understanding how this works correctly.
Let’s suppose you’re using the reference frame of someone traveling faster than the speed of light. It’s a very common misconception that something in one of Einstein’s Relativity theories doesn’t allow anything to travel faster than light, but this actually isn’t true; this is explained in this article. For someone traveling faster than light, the direction of time is reversed, meaning that what appears to them as the future would be the past to everyone else, and vice versa.
How do you reconcile what you’re saying about these reference frames not being possible with what’s explained in that article? (That’s actually just a preview of the article, but it explains enough to make it clear that the common idea “nothing can travel faster than light” actually isn’t an accurate description of physics, and that from the reference frame of a stationary observer this would cause effects to precede their causes.)
Although I disagree with Clearsky's assumptions about free will, she's right about the impossibility of time-travel reference frames in our universe. It is a common misconception that the light speed limit is a common misconception.
I'm just having General Relativity in university and learned that there are many examples of objects moving faster than light. For instance, a light spot from a fast rotating laser ray on the surface of the moon can move faster than light, or the phase velocity in a medium can exceed the light speed, or the distance to a far away galaxy can increase faster than light speed due to the cosmic expansion. But all three examples do not constitute a real speed.
The reason for the light speed limit is a simple mathematical one. The relative speed in a certain frame of reference is calculated by the velocity addition formula:
There are two wrong assumptions here. The first one is that the genocide order means that God has a "Hitler-like character".
God ordered the slaying of the Amalekites in 1000 AC. This order fits into a pattern of similar events at that time. From the point of view of God, He had to compete with other gods of other tribes, and had to show His superiority.
This is again a typical misunderstanding caused by a "literal" interpretation of the bible.
Not God needed to compete with other gods, but his followers thought he needed to compete, and thus filled the bible with stories about God's successful wars against other tribes. But God did not command or cause those wars. Humans did. There is not a single evidence outside the bible that King Saul existed at all, let alone killed the Amalekites. Those are myths and you have to understand them as myths, or else you'll get your theology all wrong.
I really think you might not be understanding how this works correctly.
Let’s suppose you’re using the reference frame of someone traveling faster than the speed of light. It’s a very common misconception that something in one of Einstein’s Relativity theories doesn’t allow anything to travel faster than light, but this actually isn’t true; this is explained in this article. For someone traveling faster than light, the direction of time is reversed, meaning that what appears to them as the future would be the past to everyone else, and vice versa.
I doubt that it is even necessary to admit space-like paths. Suppose we define God's omniscience to be the ability to access all information available on any time-like path passing through the origin of the Big Bang. Now two events that are causally connected must be separated by a timelike interval or at most a lightlike interval, and by definition everything that is ever observable must be causally connected to the Big Bang. Therefore, anything in the observable universe at any time must be separated from the Big Bang by an interval that is not space-like.
This is in fact far too weak a condition to deal with the entire universe, since space-time expansion is continually removing parts of the universe from observability by stretching their space-time interval from the Big Bang into space-like ones - but this is certainly accurately the case with the Earth, which has maintained its radius since the Big Bang, and all of which is time-like connected with the Big Bang.
There is no need for space-like intervals except if we are dealing with intervals between events that occur now. But God, or whatever presence you try equate with His material omniscience, must surely have been existent and present at the beginning of creation: and all things are connected with that, by definition.
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And who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? - Origen, 215AD [De Principiis 4.1.16]
This is in fact far too weak a condition to deal with the entire universe, since space-time expansion is continually removing parts of the universe from observability by stretching their space-time interval from the Big Bang into space-like ones - but this is certainly accurately the case with the Earth, which has maintained its radius since the Big Bang, and all of which is time-like connected with the Big Bang.
Big Bang? Hahahaha! What a joke! Do you take Mileva-Maric Einstein's... ahem, I mean Albert's relativity trash, as fact still? Obviously you do.
Space is not expanding. There is no 'space-time' combo.
There is most likely a watery 'envelope' of sorts at the outer edge of the universe. The universe having a probable radius of about 8 billion miles. The sun, moon, planets, and stars all revolve around the earth, which is at the center of the universe. The earth itself does not move!