Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
I'd like to pose a question about evolution in this evolution thread. Has anyone heard of a direct observation of one species spawning another that is capable of reproduction of its new species, as part of the normal course of nature (i.e. apart from the intervention of an intelligent guiding hand like a botanist or other genetic specialist)? If you feel my question is misguided because these things take so long no one can observe them directly, I'd like to ask how macroevolution (across species) can be such solid, unbiased science when no one has observed it or proven it to the normal rigors of the scientific method?
I'm asking for direct evidence/observation of species to species evolution (macroevolution) that's allegedly in progress all day every day, not just variation within the genetic capacity of a clad (microevolution "after its kind" as Genesis 1:21,25 states it), which I accept as do most creationists.
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Last edited by Eph415; 13th November 2003 at 12:41 PM.
I'm asking for direct evidence/observation of species to species evolution (macroevolution) that's allegedly in progress all day every day, not just variation within the genetic capacity of a clad (microevolution "after its kind" as Genesis 1:21,25 states it), which I accept as do most creationists.
Define 'variation within the genetic capacity of a clad (sic)'. Define 'genetic capacity'.
I'd like to pose a question about evolution in this evolution thread. Has anyone heard of a direct observation of one species spawning another that is capable of reproduction of its new species, as part of the normal course of nature
yeap. the york groundsel. next please....
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what do you mean by kind? vertebrate, invertebrate,bacteria, protazo, etc. ? I mean all weasels are weasels in my book, be they mink, ferret, skunk, badger etc. All are species, yet they are of their one kind. As a vertebrate mammal I am of their "kind" too..but trust me, I'm no weasel the creationists will never accept a speciation, because as soon as they are given examples of speciation they weasel out of it with clinton-like logic. "It depends on what you determine as a possiblity of the definition of kind" every time the requirements are met, they are changed again...
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Macroevolution is the sum of microevolution. really, what is the definition of genetic material.? what is a clade? And to talk about clades implies evolution, because cladistics studies the evolutionary process and all the species along the evolutionary path. stick to the linneanan system, even though he did classify some things wrongly and with things that were not of the same "kind".
__________________ Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole." Thomas 34
"On blind faith they place reliance, what they need more of is science"- MC Hawking
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There are numerous instances of observed speciation, both in the the lab and inthe wild. There are also different types of speciation. In other words, new species can be spawned in several differnt ways. Here is an excellent list.
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Thank you for this reply. I will look into it. Thanks also for the comment on the linneanan system and the list of species. I will look into those as well.
As for the other questions I am not enough of a scientist to define my views in precise scientific terms but I will try. By genetic capacity I'm referring to something like fruit fly experiments where they have been manipulated on their relatively simple genetic map to be slightly different and then revert back to their originial form within one or two generations. The known map of their genetic makeup has limited potential to become other types of creatures. If I recall these kind of experiments show they may become better fruit flies to some specific environment or another, but not likely to be anything other than fruit flies because their genetic map is not very extensive. I realize they may be a small branch in the whole of creation, but it seems to illustrate something about genetics. If they could become something significantly different (along with so many other species) why aren't we overwhelmed with transitional forms since this gradual speciation (microevolutionary buildup) would have been occuring for untold ages?
As for clads, it is a term I picked up in some study on evolution and I agree it does not seem well defined among evolutionists or creationists but the concept of initial base kinds giving rise to variations of others that are similar, fits my view of origins and seems to fit the existing natural world pretty well.
Thanks again for the info to look into...
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Last edited by Eph415; 13th November 2003 at 05:40 PM.
I think it is just a way for people to disregard the call of a Holy God and live in sin with an excuse.
It also seems to be a good excuse for some Christians to ignore God's Word and pass judgement on other people's opinions. Actually, science in general seems to be a good enough excuse, not just evolution.
Last edited by Mike Flynn; 13th November 2003 at 11:03 PM.
the creationists will never accept a speciation, because as soon as they are given examples of speciation they weasel out of it with clinton-like logic. "It depends on what you determine as a possiblity of the definition of kind" every time the requirements are met, they are changed again... 
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