Rapture Pre,Mid or Posttribulation?

IisJustMe · #41 28th February 2008, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Telrunya

Where do you get that the restrainer of 2 Thes 2:7 is the Holy Spirit?

Who can restrain Satan? Certainly man cannot, as man is too easily given to falling for the temptations Satan places before us. You actually answer your own question with this:

Originally Posted by Telrunya

Satan is not God's opposite. He is a created being and a fallen angel. He is the prince of air as Michael is the prince that guards Israel.

As a created being, Satan is subject to God, but as an angel, albeit a fallen one, he is "a little higher than man," a fact confirmed by the fact that when Jesus became Man, even though a perfect one, He was "made a little lower than the angels."

Originally Posted by Telrunya

Satan is in opposition to man, not God.

I can't understand how you would say he is not in opposition to God as well a man. Certainly Satan tried throughout the Old Testament to thwart God's purpose in providing salvation for man, and that is not something man could provide for himself. Therefore Satan's oppostion was to God and His plan so that Satan could remain the "god of this world."

Originally Posted by Telrunya

Also concider that if the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and is taken away, then how does that fit with there being believers during the tribulation who show obvious signs of gifts of the Spirit in dreaming dreams and prophesy? Is the Holy Spirit taken away and then given back? That doesn't wash with scripture.

Of course it does. You cannot find Scripture that would counter that conclusion. The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining. He works through Christians and the church to hold back the swelling tide of lawless living. It could legitimately be argued, as we see the deterioration of society's moral and spiritual values, that to a certain extent He is already "losing influence" as the body of Christ surrenders the high moral ground. When that trend reaches a point that the tide cannot be held back, allowing secular humanism, New Age thinking, Islam, and atheism to hold sway, the rapture will occur. Remember, we are not responsible for the moral righteousness of society, only for preaching the gospel message to all who will hear. These things must happen.

Whenever that is, at some point, though, He will be removed from the earth, allowing sin to have dominion over mankind. This can only happen when the Church—all true believers in Jesus Christ—is removed. This is because the Holy Spirit lives within each believer. When the church leaves the earth at the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way in the sense that His unique lawlessness-restraining ministry -- through God's people -- will be removed (see Genesis 6:3).

The removal of the Restrainer at the time of the rapture must obviously precede the “day of the Lord.” But as soon as individuals again start placing their faith in Christ during the tribulation, the Holy Spirit will again be present in the world. His ministry of restraining, though, is limited to the time before the tribulation.

PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter · #42 28th February 2008, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Faith_Warrior

Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

I think preparing for a seven year tribulation where God's wrath is poured upon the entire earth, well, is a little more than preparing for a local earthquake or hurricane... or even for a great depression. Not the worry I need to consider.

I kind of just meant it to be humorous. Sorry it didn't turn out that way. Point is -- all three Rapture possibilities can be proven by theologians who have spent a great more time researching and arguing these very things. I doubt if we can clear it up. So the best option is to pray for pre be prepared for post!

Go Cards!

Psalms34 · #43 28th February 2008, 05:24 PM

About the Holy Spirit on Earth during the Trib/great trib, you know the children of Israel were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, right? When the Holy Spirit came upon the Prophets, it was only for a short time, and then He left. They were so very much looking forward to when they could all be indwelt at all times, but this could not happen until Jesus was resurrected and left this world, then the Holy Spirit being sent to those that believed and became the Church. So now we have this promise, a seal of the Holy Spirit, by His indwelling.

Now I do think this will take place during the Tribulation, the 144000 will be “sealed”. I do believe they will be as well sealed with the Holy Spirit to guide them in their ministry. But there is no certainty that this will be the case for those that come to faith during the Tribulation; the Tribulation Believers. After all, for them, they must endure to death or live through the GT until Christ returns. They don’t necessarily have the promise of the Holy Spirit to seal them, but must keep their faith the entire time that they will be saved if they don‘t bow down to the AC. If they suddenly decide to take the mark of the beast, well it’s bad news for them, they will have no hope of salvation from that point on. If they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit, than nothing could separate them from the love of God, which would conflict with the need to endure to the end, or to their end. I think this is possible, but I don’t hold it as a matter of fact regarding the tribulation believers, but could very well be.

IisJustMe · #44 28th February 2008, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Faith_Warrior

Now I do think this will take place during the Tribulation, the 144000 will be “sealed”. I do believe they will be as well sealed with the Holy Spirit to guide them in their ministry. But there is no certainty that this will be the case for those that come to faith during the Tribulation; the Tribulation Believers. After all, for them, they must endure to death or live through the GT until Christ returns.

I don't see any indication their faith must be "to the death" any more than ours is. I don't believe faith in Jesus Christ will be any different for them than it is for us. Also, all believers are said to receive a "seal" in the Tribulation, not just the 144,000. The only difference between us and those who survive the Tribulation is that they will not be given glorified bodies or reign with Christ as we will. I believe they will be able to communicate directly with Jesus just as we will be able to, but they will live out a greatly extended life, though I'm not sure all who survive the Tribulation will live the entire 1,000 year reign. That and a couple other questions are things I"m still studying.

Psalms34 · #45 28th February 2008, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter

I kind of just meant it to be humorous. Sorry it didn't turn out that way. Point is -- all three Rapture possibilities can be proven by theologians who have spent a great more time researching and arguing these very things. I doubt if we can clear it up. So the best option is to pray for pre be prepared for post!

Go Cards!

Gee I though mine was kinda funny too, in a bland computer generated joke sorta way

As for proven, well only if they are relative truth. There is only one absolute truth of the matter, and they can't all be entirely correct. One must be the truth, or none are the truth. Since it is a mystery, than not all may understand that mystery, but some may since it is not a secret. To understand the mystery, one must examine all the facts, but not rely on misinformation as I find is often given. Than once the facts speak for themselves, one must accept the fact of the matter, or the mystery continues to be a mystery for them.

Psalms34 · #46 28th February 2008, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

I don't see any indication their faith must be "to the death" any more than ours is. I don't believe faith in Jesus Christ will be any different for them than it is for us. Also, all believers are said to receive a "seal" in the Tribulation, not just the 144,000. The only difference between us and those who survive the Tribulation is that they will not be given glorified bodies or reign with Christ as we will. I believe they will be able to communicate directly with Jesus just as we will be able to, but they will live out a greatly extended life, though I'm not sure all who survive the Tribulation will live the entire 1,000 year reign. That and a couple other questions are things I"m still studying.

Sealed is only mentioned in Revelation 7 for the 144000. Something to chew on I guess.

I take it then that you believe that a Christian can loose their salvation then (though I thought you said otherwise before), I mean in this present age and being of the Church? I mean if there is no difference as you said.
That's the only thing that stops me from saying this is a definite thing, not knowing for 100% certain that a Christian in this age can loose their salvation or not. But I take that position nonetheless, that we cant.

Mark 13:13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

IisJustMe · #47 28th February 2008, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Faith_Warrior

I take it then that you believe that a Christian can loose their salvation then, I mean in this present age and being of the Church? I mean if there is no difference as you said.

On the contrary, the Holy Spirit seals all believers for the day of redemption, a down payment for that promise. (Ephesians 1:13,14) In this passage, Paul explains that the Holy Spirit is the seal of a contract with God, that through Jesus' blood the sinners' sins are forgiven and faith in that fact delivers us into eternal life. God is not a man that He should break that contract. The "seal" of the Holy Spirit assures us that faith is all that is needed to close the deal. If we have recognized the validity of the contract -- recognized our need for a Savior because aside from Him we have no hope -- and made that confession from a contrite heart, there is nothing that can ever cause God to break that contract, and regardless of our behavior, we cannot break it either. Our acts do not negate our intent, but only show that our flesh yet lives. It is not our flesh with which the contract is made, but with our soul, ruled by a human spirit that longs for the presence of the Holy Spirit as it's complement. I don't see anything to indicate the method and seal of salvation is different for Tribulation saints.

Originally Posted by Faith_Warrior

Mark 13:13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

"Endure" (Greek, hupomeno) means "tarry, remain behind" which makes perfect sense in light of the meaning of "end" (Greek, telos) which is not a measure of time, but describes a situation. Our "endurance" is not dependent on retaining faith, but in having ever showed true faith in the first place. If we have made that true declaration of being a sinner in need of Jesus, that faith will never fail us. It is not up to us to endure, but up to the Holy Spirit's testimony that our faith was, is and will remain real. For that reason, I see no way the Holy Spirit cannot be involved in Tribulation saints' conversion.

Telrunya · #48 28th February 2008, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

You cannot find Scripture that would counter that conclusion. The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining.

I provided scripture in my previous post that does indeed counter the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining by showing who has does the restaining and been the one to oppose Satan in the past. It isn't the Holy Spirit.

IisJustMe · #49 28th February 2008, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Telrunya

I provided scripture in my previous post that does indeed counter the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining by showing who has does the restaining and been the one to oppose Satan in the past. It isn't the Holy Spirit.

No offense, but I stand by what I wrote.

romans6and6 · #50 28th February 2008, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Faith_Warrior

Henry died in 1714. Clark 1832. The rapture was not even popularized until after their death. The Church went through a serious denial of the Word of God, where popes and such restrained God’s word from the Church (the Christians) and invoked their own teachings alone and by penalty of death. By the time Henry was born, the Church was once again really getting some baring on the understanding of the whole bible once again. If one really wants to go by tradition alone, than maybe one would feel more secure feeding from the hand of the pope?
Good luck with that...

I understand that each generation takes what it has learned from the previous generation and improves on it and sees clearer and further. This thesis is known as "Standing on the shoulders of giants." It originated from Isaac Newton in 1676, where in a letter to a friend he wrote, "If I have seen further than others, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

However, in this case, that is not what is happening. The whole foundation of the pre-tribulation rapture is based on a wrong interpretation of Daniel 9:27. They say that this verse is talking about "The Antichrist" making a treaty with Israel for 7 years and that the Jews will rebuild the temple, and then "The antichrist " will break the treaty after 3 and 1/2 years, and stop the sacrifices and cause everyone to worship him upon force of death.

But all of the 70 weeks of Daniel was fulfilled in Jesus' earthly ministry, his death on the cross, and his reign at the right hand of the Father. It was all fulfilled in one time span, and NOT with a nearly 2000 year gap.

The whole prophecy is about the Messiah, Jesus Christ - not Jesus Christ and "The Antichrist."

As stated, even Dr. Charles Haley of 1927 taught that all of Daniel 9:24-27 was referring to Jesus Christ.

The whole popular modern-day end-time scenario was basically unheard of until Darby/Scofield and the Scofield Study Bible that gained acceptance in the evangelical world by the end of the 19th century.