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I just knew someone was gonna bring up the exceptions. I make no qualms in saying the Bible is to be taken literally; and even though It has figurative passages in It, those passages are the exception, rather than the rule.
What method do yo uuse to tell one from the other?
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"For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties." -Hitler, Mein Kampf, Volume II, Chapter X
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We come to the Scripture with our biases, our presuppositions and cultural baggage, that is inevitable. These limitations should make us humble and hesitant to become dogmatic in non-essential areas,
And who determines these NON-essential areas?
but very often we see interpretations turn into doctrines and doctrines turn into dogmas, and these dogmas result in “stumbling blocks” that are unnecessary, not to mention a distraction from the more important Gospel message.
Jesus Christ is the stumbling block to the unbeliever.
Just a few questions regarding the following scriptures...
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Can we accept the fact that there was a God in the beginning or am I interpreting this wrong?
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. Gen 1:10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
What could possibly be the reason for any of the above? If it is all incorrect according to science what significance does it give to us?
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
If man is just another primate why did he get specific mention in these above scriptures? Why wasn't he just left in the beasts of the field?
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Are these just some more insignifcant scriptures?
How about the following? Don't we have to classify these the same as Genesis?
Exo 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Deu 4:32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and [ask] from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been [any such thing] as this great thing [is], or hath been heard like it?
Psa 121:2 My help [cometh] from the LORD, which made heaven and earth
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Now how do I interpret your post and what Augustine said or any book that I read?
Why is it that people think it so difficult to interpret the Bible? or for that matter necessary to interpret the Bible?
Why do we think that WE need to interpret what it says?
Why can't we just ACCEPT what it says?
If it says "God said....", Why can't we accept that He said that?
God's word is not difficult to understand. Just read it. Forget about trying to interpret it. It will interpret itself!
Now while I do believe there are things we can learn from science, I will not agree that when science disagrees with scripture we look to science rather than scripture for the truth.
Can't you see that most of the arguement is not that the scriptures are not literal but that God is not real?
Don't you see that evolution says there is NO God! Science says there is no God when it accepts evolution.
Don't kid yourself, there really is no such thing as theistic evolution. You either serve God or you serve evolution. You cannot serve two masters. Evolution does not give room to God. Science does not give room to God. They say He is not falsifiable so they do not accept Him. They say they cannot see God so therefore He does not exist. They mock Him!
I'm not sure what Augustine was saying but I'm sure if He heard the things said about God on this forum he would be appalled!
No, I will choose God first every time. I agree, I don't have all the answers but I will trust God and those who believe in the Bible as it is written rather than those who are professed atheists who malign and discredit God and His word. I find to do so would be to compromise the integrity of the Word of God and I will not do that for you, Augustine, the pope or any other person. Not now, not ever!
__________________ "Blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed."
I'm with AV1611VET and FoeHammer, GOD DID IT --- CASE CLOSED.
Last edited by Inan3; 23rd February 2008 at 01:47 AM.
So, in Revelation, the dragon is a literal dragon?
So, the earth is literally fixed and unmoving in space?
So, you agree with the literalist geocentrists?
So, you completely disagree with Augustine?
The scripture tells us who the dragon is. We don't need to interpret that.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Unless you don't believe the devil is literal. Then possibly you don't believe Jesus is literal or any of the Godhead. or the apostles. etc.
__________________ "Blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed."
I'm with AV1611VET and FoeHammer, GOD DID IT --- CASE CLOSED.
Inan, your post has so many things wrong in it, it is nearly impossible to know where to start.
I will generalize. First, you seem to be doing some major question-begging here. You say you just accept what God says, etc. But so do I. I accept everything God says entirely and completely. I just don't think He is saying what you think He is saying. You ask why we interpret, yet you interpret Scripture every time you pick it up. You are choosing the literal historical narrative interpretation of Genesis, which is just one of the possible interpretations. Why do you choose that one, rather than another one? Because it seems the most "plain" and obvious to you? But should you not consider how the original author would have intended it, or how that original audience would have read it? They definitely would NOT have read it the way you do.
And, as for Augustine, I just laid out what he said, and very clearly, and in his own words. What he obviously would be appalled at is the modern Creationist position which is one of the most dangerous tools of Satan, in my opinion, in the world today.
On the question of the dragon, you and AV seem to be making the same error. I am not asking whether I think the term the "dragon" refers to something literal. I am asking whether you think the literal thing being referred to is literally a dragon. Do you not agree that much of what is described in Revelation is describing REAL future events and REAL people and things, but using figurative, symbolic and typological language? Even the most ardent Creationist would usually agree fully with that concept. They can accept figurative descriptions of FUTURE events and people, but not figurative descriptions of PAST events and people.
__________________ In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. - St. Augustine, in his analysis of Genesis.
Last edited by Vance; 23rd February 2008 at 01:48 AM.
No, I will choose God first every time. I agree I don't have all the answers but I will trust God and those who believe in the Bible as it is written rather than those who are professed atheists who malign and discredit God and His word. I find to do so would be to compromise the integrity of the Word of God and I will not do that for you, Augustine, the pope or any other person. Not now, not ever!
Do you not agree that much of what is described in Revelation is describing REAL future events and REAL people and things, but using figurative, symbolic and typological language?
Yes --- and the Bible makes it clear too --- It doesn't leave the reader wondering ---
[bible]Revelation 1:1[/bible]
This verse means Jesus encoded (signified) what was written therein, using symbolism from the previous 65 books themselves.
Yes --- and the Bible makes it clear too --- It doesn't leave the reader wondering ---
[bible]Revelation 1:1[/bible]
This verse means Jesus encoded (signified) what was written therein, using symbolism from the previous 65 books themselves.
No, signified does not mean "encoded". But the point is very simple. Revelation shows that God can and does choose to communicate to His people using figurative, symbolic and typological language, even when referring to real events (as opposed to mere theological truths). God does not always describe things that happen or happened using strict literal historic narrative.
And, if it comes to "plain" reading, when I read Genesis 1 and 2, it sounds NOTHING like a strictly narrative historical account. It sounds nothing at all like Luke, for example. It sounds exactly like what it is, a figurative account of what happened in the past. And, not surprisingly, this is how the author would have intended it! So, why in the world would we read it differently, the way we like our "history" today?
And, it seems odd that you have so little respect for someone who is a foundation of early Christianity and generally considered one of the most insightful Christian thinkers of all time. Maybe you would prefer someone more contemporary, like C.S. Lewis?
__________________ In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture, different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. - St. Augustine, in his analysis of Genesis.
Last edited by Vance; 23rd February 2008 at 02:09 AM.
Inan, your post has so many things wrong in it, it is nearly impossible to know where to start..
It seems you think YOU are the judge of who is right and who is wrong.
I will generalize. First, you seem to be doing some major question-begging here.
Ya, those questions are for you to answer.
You say you just accept what God says, etc. But so do I. I accept everything God says entirely and completely.
No you don't. You don't believe He made man in His image and likeness. You believe He made him a .... , quite frankly what do you believe God made man? Even evolutionists aren't sure what the original ... whatever... is. And seeings you are an evolutionist I guess your not sure either.
I just don't think He is saying what you think He is saying. You ask why we interpret, yet you interpret Scripture every time you pick it up. You are choosing the literal historical narrative interpretation of Genesis, which is just one of the possible interpretations. Why do you choose that one, rather than another one? Because it seems the most "plain" and obvious to you? But should you not consider how the original author would have intended it, or how that original audience would have read it? They definitely would NOT have read it the way you do.
So should I read your post as a narrative? You don't really mean what you are saying??? I guess I can interpret it anyway I want? Instead of taking it literal, it must have some other meaning. Perhaps you really mean that you agree with me but you are saying something different??? Ridiculous??? That's what you seem to be saying you do with the Word of God. You give it whatever interpretation that fits with you. That's why we have so many false religions and cults today because people want to read it however they want RATHER THAN just reading what it says and believing that. Remember the scripture says not to add or take away from what it says OR perhaps you have a special interpretation for that!!??!!
And, as for Augustine, I just laid out what he said, and very clearly, and in his own words. What he obviously would be appalled at is the modern Creationist position which is one of the most dangerous tools of Satan, in my opinion, in the world today.
Well, quite frankly, seeings he is not God I really don't care what HIS interpretation is any more than anyone else's who does not take it for what it says.
On the question of the dragon, you and AV seem to be making the same error. I am not asking whether I think the term the "dragon" refers to something literal. I am asking whether you think the literal thing being referred to is literally a dragon. Do you not agree that much of what is described in Revelation is describing REAL future events and REAL people and things, but using figurative, symbolic and typological language? Even the most ardent Creationist would usually agree fully with that concept. They can accept figurative descriptions of FUTURE events and people, but not figurative descriptions of PAST events and people.
I know full well that there are specific portions of scripture that are figurative, symbolic and typological language but you can't just apply that to where ever you want. It is VERY apparent when it happens. It is not that way in Genesis. Genesis is the book of beginnings and God has made it clear HOW it happened and He repeats it over and over in the scriptures. If anyone is in error it is those who try to change the scriptures to fit their beliefs.
__________________ "Blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed."
I'm with AV1611VET and FoeHammer, GOD DID IT --- CASE CLOSED.
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